24 bit mono recording

still broken…

I have just returned from vacation full of inspiration, and was happy to learn that n-Track v.5 was out of beta (even a new beta 5.1 up, too - great work, Flavio!)

I was hoping that my troubles with 24 bit mono recording was over, and the error present in previous builds was found and corrected - alas, not so, unfortunately.

16 bit recording (using E-mu 1820 ASIO with newest drivers under windows XP Pro) works great in both mono and stereo.

24 bit recording works great in stereo, but when attempting a mono recording it creates just buzz and distortion. Apparently the 24 bit format is wrong somehow, and the option to change the way n-Track records and plays 24 bit files back is greyed out.

I use mono recording a lot when tracking, both for microphone inputs and for electronic instruments, so I would like to see this issue solved.

I have been able to record 24 bit mono files with my present hardware using n-Track v. 4, but that version was very sluggish on my system, so it never really caught on.

I can record a 24 bit mono file in any of the other applications I have (Cubase LE, Samplitude SE8, Wavelab Lite, Cool Edit 2000) without any trouble, producing perfect 24 bit mono files that even imports and plays back perfectly in n-Track v.5, so it’s somewhere in the software part of the recording chain that things go wrong.

Have any of you experienced this, or do I have some obscure setting set to the wrong position in n-Track?

regards, Nils

like you i have had trouble with 24 bit recoeding - but it does work

here are my settings

soundcard - Soundblaster Audigy NX2 USB -

WDM drivers -

N track record settings (hammer on input meter) - MONO - 24bit - 24 bit mode, 3 BYTES PACKED (leaving it at default caused my problems) -

Dr J


(Nils K @ Aug. 02 2007,05:27)
QUOTE
I have just returned from vacation full of inspiration, and was happy to learn that n-Track v.5 was out of beta (even a new beta 5.1 up, too - great work, Flavio!)

I was hoping that my troubles with 24 bit mono recording was over, and the error present in previous builds was found and corrected - alas, not so, unfortunately.

16 bit recording (using E-mu 1820 ASIO with newest drivers under windows XP Pro) works great in both mono and stereo.

24 bit recording works great in stereo, but when attempting a mono recording it creates just buzz and distortion. Apparently the 24 bit format is wrong somehow, and the option to change the way n-Track records and plays 24 bit files back is greyed out.

I use mono recording a lot when tracking, both for microphone inputs and for electronic instruments, so I would like to see this issue solved.

I have been able to record 24 bit mono files with my present hardware using n-Track v. 4, but that version was very sluggish on my system, so it never really caught on.

I can record a 24 bit mono file in any of the other applications I have (Cubase LE, Samplitude SE8, Wavelab Lite, Cool Edit 2000) without any trouble, producing perfect 24 bit mono files that even imports and plays back perfectly in n-Track v.5, so it's somewhere in the software part of the recording chain that things go wrong.

Have any of you experienced this, or do I have some obscure setting set to the wrong position in n-Track?

regards, Nils

By recording in mono do you mean setting the 'mono' format in the "Settings/Soundcard settings/Recording format" box? If yes, have you tried instead setting the recording mode to "stereo to two mono tracks" and disabling recording from one of the left or right channels in the popup menu that appears clicking on the small rec button in the recording meter window?

Flavio.

Flavio, I use the ‘Stereo to two mono tracks’ setting, as I want to be able to record mono and stereo tracks simultaneously. I guess the ‘mono’ setting in the ‘Recording format’ box would leave me with mono channels only. (thanks for the suggestion and the swift response, BTW :) )

Dr. J, I want to use ASIO drivers instead of WDM drivers due to the low latency they provide. The setting of the 24 bit recording format (packed, left justified etc.) is greyed out. I might try to set the soundcard to WDM, adjust the setting to ‘3 bytes packed’ (if possible), and set the soundcard back to ASIO and see if the settings stay on ‘3 bytes packed’.

I’ll be back… - till then…

regards, Nils

MUST LEARN TO READ ONE DAY -

you said “16 bit recording (using E-mu 1820 ASIO with newest drivers under windows XP Pro) works great in both mono and stereo”

you cannot record in mono in ASIO - you have to record in stereo (two mono tracks) then delete one track to give you mono -

if you try to record in ASIO (two channels) but delete one before recording (which i tried once) then N dont like it -

if youi can record only one channel in ASIO tell Steinberg (ASIO is their invention) as somebody (EMU) is doing something that cannot be done -

if 24bit is greyed out then it is not available either on soundcard of in N -

Dr J

DR Jackrabbit: <!–QuoteBegin>

QUOTE
if you try to record in ASIO (two channels) but delete one before recording (which i tried once) then N dont like it -


This is - more precisely - what I am trying to do.

You are right in that ASIO is stereo - period. Anyway, this excact method works without any hassle at all i n-Track v. 4.x (which is sluggish in other respects and impossible to work properly in), Cubase LE, Samplitude etc. Not v.5. Why??

regards, Nils

i think that in this case N is still recording in stereo but i channel is picking up computer noise (at full volume) which gets modulated by the recorded audio on playback -

best to record in two mono tracks and then kill on of them -

Dr J

Hi Nils K:
You’ve been struggling with this issue for some time now…

Something in the application’s coding (n-Track) must have changed for this to suddenly appear… Do you still have the install application for n-Track (last build that worked for you)? Or… do you still have that build installed?

I ask that, because… can you “Track” in the build and then Mix-and-Edit and Whatever in the Later/Latest Builds? AND… would that be acceptable to you and your set-up?

If you remember and recall that when Flavio posted the versions that allows the the previous Explorer browser “NOT” to be brought into the up-dated build. That has caused me great stress and heartache…

The “NOW” Current default is… “Create all folders-and-files” in “My Documents” “C” Drive… I’ve got no less than 12 Hard drives that I create projects with files-and-folders… in…

That is one aspect of n-Track that is NOT included in “SAVE Preferences”…

My attempt is not to change the topic… It’s to add to the issues that are creating stress with Tracking, Editing, and Mixing in the DAW management of Projects…

I believe that this might be a Micro-Soft issue… and… Flavio is constrained by MicroSoft’s perception of how Audio is handled and managed by Windows and Their Operating Systems…

Complaining about how audio files are handled and managed by the Audio Users is beginning to “Sum-Up” and could very well fall upon “Deaf Ears”…

Windows Operating Systems are finding and looking for more important issues to spend their energy’s to work on…

Then… on top of all that, there are Trojans-and-Viruses that enter the game that adds stress-and-resolve to the practice…

IT appears that I am spending Less-and-Less Time on addressing my “Tracker’s Block”…

If it ain’t one thing… It’s a Half-Dozen… Sorry for adding this to your thread…

Bill…

Hi Bill.

I am not short of workarounds for this problem. Instead of reinstalling v.4 to coexist with v.5 and use that version for tracking I would rather record stereo and then split the resulting stereo track into two mono tracks and deleting one. I would prefer not to have to work around this instead…

I agree with you in the fact that Windows has a rather consumer-oriented approach to audio streams, files and thread handling. This may complicate - or even prevent - effective workflow in a studio environment.

I am actually considering a hardware-based (i.e. not a PC) tracking and recording solution, reserving the DAW for midi tracking, mixing and post-production only. This will probably not happen anyway, but it puts the “tracker’s block” into some kind of perspective.

regards, Nils

I’ve never had a problem with this?

I always record to mono tracks by setting the driver to record “stereo to two mono tracks” and then enabling or disabling one of the pair in the recording vu meters.

That way I can record only the track I want instead of recording 2 and deleting the second one as Dr J is suggesting. I don’t see why you would do that…
If I want stereo I simply enable the second of the pair. Once my driver is set to stereo to two mono tracks, the only thing I ever have to touch is the recording vu meter to enable disable tracks.

I have had the opportunity to play a little more with n-Track v.5 during the last couple of days, and apart from the 24 bit mono recording question (which seems to be at the focus of attention in the latest builds - at least there’s an effort going on to iron out some errors regarding the drivers for EMU soundcards) I have found a few annoying issues I’d like to share…

In order to clarify the following, I use a 2 GHz P-IV system with 1 GB RAM and an EMU 1820 soundcard running ASIO drivers. This setup works pretty good except for the following issues in n-Track:

1) If a midi track is recorded in a project with some audio tracks, the resulting midi track is out of sync with the audio by about a third to half a second. I have not found a way around this without having to move all the midi events in order to make them fit.

2) I still have delay issues with SIR VST Impulse Reverb plugin - when inserted into an aux channel (the usual way to utilize a reverb BTW) there is a very noticeable delay making it completely unuseable. Changing the latency in the ASIO box only introduces clicking sounds on playback, but has no effect on this delay.

3) Although the VST and VSTi support has been vastly improved, I still miss the capability to freeze a midi track into audio when running a VSTi. I render the midi tracks to wave by soloing one midi track at a time and importing it afterwards.

4) The fact that n-Track insists on at least one audio track being present in the project in order to duly render the VSTi controlled by the midi track is really confusing. Why isn’t the VSTi channel detected by the program?!

5) There is some strange thing about the mixing engine - it seems that the internal level normalization is wrong in one way or another. Mixdowns sounds muddy bordering on the gritty (I have the 64 bit mixing turned on), and when exporting a project to e.g. Samplitude (great feature BTW, Flavio!) the levels are all over the place, and midi track data are ignored. When importing a project exported from samplitude the levels are ignored, and no volume envelopes are present (This feature shure could use some documentation. Maybe it’s not possible to get those data ported with the project).

When I imported my latest n-Track project into Samplitude - and got the levels right - it sounded sweeter and clearer than it had ever done in n-Track, using the excact same 24 bit wave files! I have no explanation for that, but for now, I’m back to using Samplitude for my music projects.

However, Samplitude lacks automation of anything but volume, and it does not allow the easy way of renaming the wave files that n-Track does. (but Samplitude was for free bundled with a mag I bought)

I sure would like to see a lot of these issues addressed soon. I don’t consider them bugs as such, but they are annoyances hindering creativity.

regards, Nils

Hi Nils K:
I hope you can persuade the “Powers-that-Be” to get these issues resolved for you… You have been hurting-and-struggling with your creativity for some time now…

Could this matter be an M-Audio driver issue? or a combination of n-Track and drivers?

Are you aware that SIR has gone into another version? It is now SIR2… I took a browse around the page this morning… It looks so nice… I know, sooner-or-later, I’m gonna have to “Spring” for the reg, codes… as well, for the Bundled IR Samples…

SIR Information Page

This is pretty pricey stuff… :O ??? :(

Bill…

Hmmm… 149€ is a lot of cash indeed - I wonder what you get of extra value for your money considering that Voxengo Pristine Space is tagged at 119€. I’ll stick with running SIR 1 in Samplitude SE for now… - this host actually knows how to compensate the latency correctly.

regards, Nils

Hi Knils K:
I think that the SIR2 is quite a refinement over the last version of Sir… v1.0.1.1 ?? However, it’s gonna be difficult to know for sure unless you anti-up so-to-speak… The demo has a Beep or drop-out, every-so-often…

He sold out… so-to-speak with whatever group he got connected to… Everyone was sure that he had left his Impulse Response Project in the “DUST”…

But… That didn’t happen… He is true to his calling… I’d describe him as … The Leo Fender of Impulse Response Technology…

This guy is pretty clever… He deserves a lot of respect around this stuff… in my opinion… of course…

Bill…


(Nils K @ Aug. 06 2007,00:42)
QUOTE
…I am actually considering a hardware-based (i.e. not a PC) tracking and recording solution, reserving the DAW for midi tracking, mixing and post-production only…


I have been getting into using an older Tascam recorder, a 788 for tracking. It’s just a tad bit noisy, but depending on the situation I can use a longer mic cable and keep the machine out of earshot.

It’s got a SCSI CD-Rom/burner, so I grab the wav files to CD and can import the files into a PC for mixing and all that.

I have to admit, recording into a computer kind of nags me. I think it’s wierd. But hey, I’ve done it plenty! Anyway I think this is a solid way of thinking. Dedicated tracker.
Quote: (Nils K @ Aug. 03 2007, 2:02 AM)

Flavio, I use the 'Stereo to two mono tracks' setting, as I want to be able to record mono and stereo tracks simultaneously. I guess the 'mono' setting in the 'Recording format' box would leave me with mono channels only. (thanks for the suggestion and the swift response, BTW :) )

Dr. J, I want to use ASIO drivers instead of WDM drivers due to the low latency they provide. The setting of the 24 bit recording format (packed, left justified etc.) is greyed out. I might try to set the soundcard to WDM, adjust the setting to '3 bytes packed' (if possible), and set the soundcard back to ASIO and see if the settings stay on '3 bytes packed'.

I'll be back... - till then...

regards, Nils

hi,I,m having the same problem....when i try to use 24 Bit with the "stereo to two mono track" setting(what I like to use the most),all i get is a LOUD Distortion noise.If i switch to 16 bit,it works.the recording format(packed left justified,etc.) is grayed out.Id like to get this Problem figured out.the "Stereo to two mono track" setting,is what I like to use the most...Its the most versitle,for what i like tro do. and Not being able to use it<In 24 bit mode,goes against what i bought a 24 bit interface for.......If any one,has a Fix of some Kind,Id HIGHLY Appreciate it......kvv :handshake:

Hi Nils K:
Are you still around? I don’t see you up here…

How’s your setup working now that v5.1.0 is out of BETA?

I’m pretty sure that that’s the audio card I was looking at the other day… I was almost tempted to “Spring” for it… Maybe, I will yet… Is that the Card that has the Sub-D connector that Fans-out to several types of female audio connectors? Is that how the interface is setup… on that card?

You know, we are all behind you in support of getting this issue resolved…

I’m gonna ask a “Layman’s” question here… Don’t you guys jump on me…

Do you think it might be a corrupt driver install that could be doing this?

What would happen if you went into the Device Manager and uninstall the driver(s)… and re-install them and see if that resolves your issue…

That has happened with my Lexicon CORE-32 hardware and '98SE Desk… Way back when…

Bill…

a sample of the things you wrote about above and maybeeeeee some help

1) If a midi track is recorded in a project with some audio tracks, the resulting midi track is out of sync with the audio by about a third to half a second. I have not found a way around this without having to move all the midi events in order to make them fit.

i found when trying to sync two PCs together that MIDI uses M.B.T timing MEASURES BEATS TICKS not FRAMES so this may be your problem - easiest way is to select all audio tracks in one go hold down SHIFT key and select each track in turn when you let go of the shift key all tracks selected will move as one -

4) The fact that n-Track insists on at least one audio track being present in the project in order to duly render the VSTi controlled by the midi track is really confusing. Why isn’t the VSTi channel detected by the program?! -

If you have the input icon (top of toolbar) showing both MIDI kbd and microphone this will happen, select only MIDI kbd -


Mixdowns sounds muddy bordering on the gritty (I have the 64 bit mixing turned on),

have had this once when using only one or two tracks - went back to 32bit and all was sweet again - never had problem with song has a good few tracks in it -

hope this helps

Dr J

Thanks for the suggestions, DR J. I will try them out as soon as I have the chance.

BTW, I found something that has bothered me for a long time - at least back to v. 3.x - now finally has been fixed.

When I set up a mix, i have the project running and change settings along the way. As n-Track has been prone to crashing from time to time and crashes always have a tendency to occur just before saving, I have made a habit of saving the project whenever I did something. This was a problem in ealier versions, because a save operation made the sound stutter and jerk, sometimes even overloading the output. Not anymore, thank you. Now I can save and run the project every time. Thanks, Flavio! :)

Bringing up the mixer window still produces a slight stutter, though…