a rather interesting interview

http://tinyurl.com/as7vw

isaac

Hmmm… OK. Maybe they could send all that money to ME? Then maybe I could run for office and become a raving looney too! :D Er… no forget that. I’d never survive politics. I have a conscience, common sense and decency. Not traits an aspiring politician needs to “make it”. :(

TG

The guy’s a social darwinist. “Aid” is not intrinsically evil, what matters is how it is used. Certainly there are better and worse ways to help, but money spent helping a community get clean water isn’t going to turn them into freeloaders. It just might prevent the deaths of a few million children, however, and provide a necessary condition for a functioning, self-supporting community. :angry:

Quote (TomS @ July 18 2005,14:54)
"Aid" is not intrinsically evil, what matters is how it is used.

I should have known Tom would pipe in the voice of reason. :)

Should we stop "aid" because of the abuses? NO. I say we should stop the abuses. Helping these people in very basic and fundamental ways to help themselves is what should be going on.....

TG

The gentleman in the piece said that cutting off the aid was the quickest way to stop the abuse. There’s no point in throwing good money after bad if the system can’t be fixed.

Quote (ksdb @ July 18 2005,15:22)
The gentleman in the piece said that cutting off the aid was the quickest way to stop the abuse. There's no point in throwing good money after bad if the system can't be fixed.

I can agree with that for sure. A better method is needed for distributing aid to impoverished countries. It seems an almost impossible task though because of the greed factor involved. Stories abound about tin-horned "leaders" taking "aid" money and getting filthy rich, living the high life while their countrymen wallow in filth and starvation. People suck...

TG

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…provide a necessary condition for a functioning, self-supporting community


if you would revisit the interview, you’d discover that’s exactly what mr shikwati is suggesting that aid is preventing… this is nothing more than welfare on an incredibly large scale… but of course, you mentioned “the children!!”, so i must immediately ship out all of my clothes and write checks to some address that may be nothing more than the accountant for whatever corrupt murdering bastard is in office at the moment…

what about helping them to build some industrial presence, instead?.. instead of sending money, we could provide engineers and contractors that would provide help in building some infrastructure to provide jobs…

personally, my interest has piqued at the claim about aids statistics being gossly exaggerated… if that is the case indeed, then we’ve all been duped by whomever originated those numbers… let me guess - WHO, UNICEF?..

isaac
Quote (idover @ July 18 2005,15:47)
what about helping them to build some industrial presence, instead?... instead of sending money, we could provide engineers and contractors that would provide help in building some infrastructure to provide jobs...

The above mentioned "tin-horns" don't want that Isaac. You ever try to buy yourself a LearJet with a plumber? :D

The corruption is not just on their side of the coin either. What was that cat with United Way or summat got busted a few years back for bilking millions in freebies out of the welfare money?

TG
Quote (idover @ July 18 2005,15:47)
what about helping them to build some industrial presence, instead?... instead of sending money, we could provide engineers and contractors that would provide help in building some infrastructure to provide jobs...

Because a lot of these places (e.g., communities in Burkina Faso) need safe water sources first. They are about 200 years from any industrial presence.

And, yes, the fact that we're talking about innocent childrren dying of easily preventable diseases matters. They are victims and proper objects of compassion.

I'd recommend you consider at Childreach/ PLAN USA if you are writing checks today.

:)
http://www.planusa.org/index.php

interesting… it appears that PlanUSA would love to help children… so long as those children are not in the United States…

isaac

Quote (idover @ July 18 2005,16:27)
interesting... it appears that PlanUSA would love to help children... so long as those children are not in the United States...

isaac

Don't be silly, isaac. Need knows no nationalities. PLAN USA is set up to serve a particular group. Your citicism could as easily be leveled at groups that target poverty in Flint. The article suggests that aid to African nations is is a problem, you said something about wanting to help those who need help more directly, Childreach serves people in Africa and serves them with integrity.

Next time someone solicits money from you for a “good” cause, ask the solicitor what his/her salary is a year. You might be surprised (if they tell the truth). :D

Yaz, financials for these groups are public.

Although it is a handy way to avoid feeling the duty to help, to believe that there are no ways to help.

“if you want a job done right, do it yourself”.

don’t trust the local officials? don’t give them money, give them manpower and capital (that is to say, captial in the marxist definition of concrete useful equipment, factories, etc…)…

not sure if that will fly? BE PART OF THE MANPOWER.

i’m in china right now, teaching english to little children in poor communities. before that, in the us, i ran a hunger releif organization and personally fed 200-300 people a week in my hometown.

no money involved.

it’s not hard to make sure something is getting done right, you just have to do it yourself.

_illium

This Kenyan economist makes good sense. What’s that expression: Give a man a fish and feed him for one day. Teach him to fish and feed him for a lifetime.

His most logical statement explained how aid bankrupts local farmers, as the free food drives down the price of food, putting them out of business. This prevents them from feeding their own country when the aid is gone, of course requiring more aid to feed the people, a vicious cycle. How do you break this?

I read a story about Bush’s meeting with Bono and Geldof before live 8 where Bush said that to truly help the Africans they should push Europe to eliminate European price supports on European food to allow African farmers to export food to Europe to give Africans a source of income. Because of European price supports on food, African food is too expensive to compete. And, yes, I know the US also has price supports, but they are not as large and we are not close enough to Africa to become a significant importer of their food.

On the Aids situation, why is all the attention on the need for medication and not on prevention. Clinton’s visit seems to be missing this point. This disease can be easily eradicated with some self control or safe sex.

But Val, it’s a false dicotomy here - not all aid is just a handout. Think about a loan to start a business - how many business would not exist without the “help”? Now think of aid in two flavors - like a loan, but that doesn’t need to be repaid (good) and just a handout to get through the day (still good, but not helpful in the way you were looking for). Clean water to a community in Burkina Faso is like the former.

Additionally, it is simply morally wrong for us to have expensive toys like n-Track while children are dying because their water has poo in it.

Tom, good point, although I think we agree here. A loan to a company is only effective if it used to get it through a temporary bad period, or to use to invest in capital to expand or start the business (sorry, I’m a bean counter). A loan to a company to pay ongoing payroll, say, would not be good for the company, as the company should be able to cover its ongoing expenses.

Same in Africa, if we continue to give them food, it makes them dependent on us to provide sustenance. Better that we should teach, or provide infrastructure to feed themselves. That was my point. The Kenyan economist is trying to tell us that the sructure as it exists today is perpetuating Africa’s need for food aid. I’m not saying we should do nothing.

Maybe we should provide price supports to African farmers when we provide their country with aid in the form of food.

More importantly, most African countries seemed mired in some suicidal path to destroy each other, with no plan to better themselves and their people. I don’t know how we change this behavior. It is sad, but at times it just seems were pissing money down the drain with no positive outcome.

Yes, the business analogy sounds right to me. :)