Armageddon, the End Times, and Jesus

who do you say he is?

I know I haven’t participated here much recently. Long story, and I won’t go into details. But recent events got me thinking. So I’m taking a chance and I’m gonna talk about Jesus. Am I’m gonna be blunt. If you’re offended, sorry. But the topic is too important to pussy foot around.

Why am I doing this? Two reasons:
1. There may be people here who would be open to Jesus if they knew how important it was
2. I believe recent events indicate that we’re close to the end

To those who just rolled their eyes, you can skip the rest of this post. If you’re so sure that Jesus never existed or is dead or whatever, then nothing I say will convince you otherwise. This post is intended for people who are still open minded enough to hear what the bible says about our future.

I figure if even 1 person is willing to consider what the bible says, then maybe 1 less person will end up in h.e.l.l.



What the Bible says (my translation):
When God kicked Adam & Eve out of Eden, he promised that he’d send a savior (messiah or christ) one day. I believe Jesus (a Jew) is that savior.

God has given us all plenty of time to decide who Jesus is. He’s been patient, but his patience does have an end. The bible says that when that time comes, there will be a few signs or warnings. The rebuilding of Israel (1948) is a major sign. The establishment of a one-world religion (Islam maybe?) is another sign. A peace treaty between Israel and the Arabs is another sign. There are loads of others.

My opinion is that enough signs have come to pass or seem to be close to occurring that we can no longer be hesitant to tell people the truth. If a building was on fire, I wouldn’t politely coax people out of bed. I’d be screaming at the top of my lungs.

Well, the time has come to start screaming.

The bible presents very clear directions for entry into Heaven. We don’t understand it all, and I’m certainly no expert. But this much is clear. Anyone who realizes that they aren’t perfect and don’t deserve an invitation into heaven, humbly asks God for forgiveness, and accepts Jesus as God’s Son and their savior will be saved from h.e.l.l.

Those who fight against God’s lordship or simply ignore him will, one day, see that they’ve made a big mistake.

I’m bringing this to your attention because it’s not too late… not yet.


~
My understanding of what is to come (drastically condensed version):

Someone remarkably popular & charismatic will strike a peace treaty between Israel and the Arab world. While this event will be hailed as a major accomplishment, it is a false peace. When the Israelis have lowered their guard, this person will betray Israel by gathering an army to invade and destroy Israel. God will not allow this.

When the invasion starts, God’s patience will be at an end. He will step in and stop the invasion, and everything we know will change. Once God reveals himself, the time of grace will be past. People will no longer be able to kneel and pray for forgiveness. Anyone who has not been ‘born again’ (spiritually born by accepting Jesus as Savior) must face God with no savior to intervene for them. God is not going to be polite with these people.

I have heard some say they will simply reason with God at that moment and lobby for entry into heaven. These people have no idea how fierce God can be. They will not stand and argue or reason with him. They will cower, hide their faces, and weep.

Ask for forgiveness before Armageddon, and he will listen. Wait until he reveals himself, and you will regret everything you ever said against him.


~
Hard stuff. I know. I was 37 when this truth finally sunk in. I didn’t like what I heard any more than you do. But just because we don’t like the truth doesn’t make it not true.

The bible is clear. To make it into heaven, you must be born again. If you want to know what that means, I’m willing to explain further. You can PM me.


~~~
Simple sinner’s prayer
If you humbly approach God, admit that you’re not perfect, ask for forgiveness, and acknowledge that Jesus is God’s son, he promises to forgive you. This simple prayer, spoken sincerely, is all it takes…

God,
I admit that I am a sinner.
I gratefully accept Jesus as my savior.
Please forgive me.
Amen

Teej, what would happen with your faith, if, the way you interpret bible prophecy is wrong, or events dont go like you expect?
Is a “no sarcasm” question.

I say amen to Teej, and Marce, nothing would happen to our faith, it would just mean that the time has not yet come to pass…

Quote (BobBlais @ Feb. 08 2006,15:25)
I say amen to Teej, and Marce, nothing would happen to our faith, it would just mean that the time has not yet come to pass............

Yup.

D

Good question, Marce. I guess the answer depends on WHAT doesn’t go as expected.

As in many subjects, there are some things that are crucial while some things are not. Some things in the bible are very clearly laid out. Others are not and are open to interpretation.

For example, many bible scholars (yes, they have degrees and everything) believe in what they call a ‘Rapture’. Although the word never appears in the bible, there are references to saving believers out of (or through) the end times.

If you interpret the word to mean ‘out of’, then there’s reason to believe that believers will be removed from the earth before things get bad. If you interpret the word to mean ‘through’, then there’s reason to believe that believers will have to live through the end times.

If the rapture is true, then a day will come when millions (billions?) of people will simply disappear. No explanation, no warning. I’d guess that clothing may be left behind. I’d guess that believers driving cars or (gulp) flying airplanes will leave those vehicles unmanned. People who support this theory tend to point to it as an explanation of why Satan can suddenly and so drastically change the world. With believers (and their prayers) gone, he is free to do what he wants with whoever is left. They’re no one left to beg God for mercy.

Anyway, i haven’t seen anything yet that explains away God. Nothing has convinced me that he won’t do what the bible says he will do.


teej

Another possibility, that you may not have considered, is the Preterist point of view.

What if, as Preterists contend, all (or substantially all) of the prophecies of Revelation have already occurred?

In support of this position they offer the testimony of Josephus in his book The Jewish Wars in which he gives a first hand account of the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus in 70 AD.

Considering that Josephus was a Jew who ‘went over’ to the Roman side it is difficult to question his motives in giving his account - he was neither for nor against the “Cult of The Kingdom of Heaven” (which eventually came to be called Christians) - in fact, he was largely unaware of the cult or its beliefs as can easily be determined by his other works. Yet he describes a series of events as witnessed by someone outside the gates of the city that bear striking resemblance to the prophecies contained in Revelation and Daniel.

As a Jew, Josephus was no doubt familiar with the Book of Daniel but he fails to make connection between what he witnessed and what Daniel foresaw. As a person unfamiliar with Revelation (which may have been written before 70 AD - there is no proof either way) he fails to draw any conclusion as well. Fairly strong evidence, in my view, that he was giving an accurate accounting.

On this point, Josephus had no reason to lie. On other points - perhaps. But not on this one. To me, that is a strong endorsement of his testimony.

I made that question, because, being a christian, and believeng that this world dont have much more time to exist (in historical therms), i have a completly diffrent vision of the prophecy, from the same base. Nice to share thoughts with you and friends about that, but not sure if an audio forum is a good place. But good that bad events can trigger more interest about the word.

Thanks your post Bill. Daniel book is in the center of the storm in this topic, specially if you believe that it was writed when it claim it was. I believe that.

Oh my god, teej, next you will be quoting Hal Lindsey. You remember - The Late Great Planet Earth? 1988? Yup, that worked out.

Dispensationalism just plays on people’s fears, and is a form of cultic manipulation. You ought to be ashamed.


<!–QuoteBegin>

Quote
The Late, Great Planet Earth
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
The Late, Great Planet Earth is the primary example of pre-millennialist, dispensationalist Christian Zionist literature by prolific author Hal Lindsey (here assisted by co-author C.C. Carlson). It was published by Zondervan in 1970, and the book became the top-selling US title of the decade, selling over 15 million copies.

Lindsey interpreted the Cold War in the context of Biblical scripture, stating that the events of history, specifically the Cold War, fulfilled Biblical prophecy. For example, he pointed to the restoration of Israel as a state in 1948 as the literal restoration of Israel prophesied in the Bible. The central theme of Lindsey’s work was his belief that Russia was to be Gog, the invader of the North prophesied by Ezekiel. Some of the word etymologies Lindsey presented to demonstrate these connections were taken from British Biblical literalists of the nineteenth century.

Lindsey wrote that current events point to a near future Tribulation which will include the biblical plagues, wars, and famines. Jesus will rapture true believers to himself at the beginning of a 7-year Tribulation, following which he will return to establish his 1000 year millennial Kingdom on earth. The book pointed to the 1990s as the probable time of fulfillment of the prophecies. The book is also notable for its breezy style and punning jokes: “Russia is a-Gog” and “Sheik to Sheik” provide two chapter titles.

One of the book’s many claims was that Jesus Christ would return in 1988.

A film of the book was made in 1979; Orson Welles provided the narration.

Lindsey has gone on to write many sequels, including Satan is Alive and Well on Planet Earth and The 1980s: Countdown to Armageddon. The latter title is now out of print.


Once again, I can’t help but wonder at another serious Christian who apparently knows so little about the texts and history of his own faith.

Really, teej, you ought to be ashamed.

:)

I don’t know if I want to even venture here as these things seem to call the trolls out of the wood work, but Revalation, is, well, not exactly a technical manual. It is a confusing mess really. If God is all that folks say he is, I would give the guy more credit. Thief in the night and all that. As for Satan, he only has as much power as you give him. This is one case where ignoring something makes it go away.

Well Tom, maybe you can think that Teej is ignorant apparently, thing i dont believe he is, but at least he is worry about you and all the folks here, salvation thing, maybe in a wrong way for you, but is better than the indiffrence, i believe. “I dont believe what you, but thanks to try to save me, at least, i guess you want my company in the heavens”… :;):

About the Revelation/apocalipsys mess, i dont see that way. The Daniel/Revelation books had too much sense to the folks that read them in their days, much of it symbolism was clear. But, sure, if you dont take the job to try to learn their original context, it can be mess.
You can apply Apocalisys to any event, something like the nostradamus thing, if you dont use a serious study method, that includes know something about their original recipients.

Quote (BillClarke @ Feb. 08 2006,17:13)
Another possibility, that you may not have considered, is the Preterist point of view.

What if, as Preterists contend, all (or substantially all) of the prophecies of Revelation have already occurred?

In support of this position they offer the testimony of Josephus in his book The Jewish Wars in which he gives a first hand account of the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus in 70 AD.

Considering that Josephus was a Jew who 'went over' to the Roman side it is difficult to question his motives in giving his account - he was neither for nor against the "Cult of The Kingdom of Heaven" (which eventually came to be called Christians) - in fact, he was largely unaware of the cult or its beliefs as can easily be determined by his other works. Yet he describes a series of events as witnessed by someone outside the gates of the city that bear striking resemblance to the prophecies contained in Revelation and Daniel.

As a Jew, Josephus was no doubt familiar with the Book of Daniel but he fails to make connection between what he witnessed and what Daniel foresaw. As a person unfamiliar with Revelation (which may have been written before 70 AD - there is no proof either way) he fails to draw any conclusion as well. Fairly strong evidence, in my view, that he was giving an accurate accounting.

On this point, Josephus had no reason to lie. On other points - perhaps. But not on this one. To me, that is a strong endorsement of his testimony.

I am committing a cardinal sin by quoting my own post, but I feared that it might be 'left behind' in this ongoing saga.

Well, is not uncommon that in the Bible prophecy, one prophece can have a double fullfillment. Is to that what you refer Bill, if i understanded you?

Quote (marce @ Feb. 08 2006,17:49)
Well, is not uncommon that in the Bible prophecy, one prophece can have a double fullfillment. Is to that what you refer Bill, if i understanded you?

No.

The question I ask is: “What if the prophecy of Revelation has already been fulfilled?” (Either completely or substantially.)

I contend that there is evidence that it has. And I submit:

<!–QuoteBegin>
Quote
And now the Romans, judging that it was in vain to spare what was round about the holy house, burnt all those places, as also the remains of the cloisters
and the gates, two excepted; the one on the east side, and the other on the south; both which, however, they burnt afterward. They also burnt down the
treasury chambers, in which was an immense quantity of money, and an immense number of garments, and other precious goods there reposited; and, to
speak all in a few words, there it was that the entire riches of the Jews were heaped up together, while the rich people had there built themselves chambers
[to contain such furniture]. The soldiers also came to the rest of the cloisters that were in the outer [court of the] temple, whither the women and children,
and a great mixed multitude of the people, fled, in number about six thousand. But before Caesar had determined any thing about these people, or given the
commanders any orders relating to them, the soldiers were in such a rage, that they set that cloister on fire; by which means it came to pass that some of
these were destroyed by throwing themselves down headlong, and some were burnt in the cloisters themselves. Nor did any one of them escape with his
life. A false prophet was the occasion of these people’s destruction, who had made a public proclamation in the city that very day, that God
commanded them to get upon the temple, and that there they should receive miraculous signs of their deliverance. Now there was then a great number
of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose on the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God; and this
was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might be buoyed up above fear and care by such hopes. Now a man that is in adversity does easily
comply with such promises; for when such a seducer makes him believe that he shall be delivered from those miseries which oppress him, then it is that the
patient is full of hopes of such his deliverance.

Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that
were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the
denunciations that God made to them. Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year.
Thus also before the Jews’ rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of
unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the
holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted
by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be
sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly
heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which
was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came
hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again.
This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it,
that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly
declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them. Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the
month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related
by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops
of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests
were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a
quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence."

CHAPTER 5
Book VI
The Wars Of The Jews
Flavius Josephus
37 - 100 AD


And further, I submit:
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Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Mt 16:28

Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation
Mt 23:36

Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place
Mt. 24:34

And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
Mk. 9:1

Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
Mk. 13:30

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
Lu. 21:32


What if Jesus was right?

Well, you will found in that discurse that there are portions that cant be applyed to that time, portions that was awaiting the “Man of sin” how called Paul. That reason i believe that that words was partially fullfilled, and that was applyed to the future too.

Quote (BillClarke @ Feb. 08 2006,16:43)
I am committing a cardinal sin by quoting my own post, but I feared that it might be 'left behind' in this ongoing saga.

Left Behind... yeah I saw those movies... :D

It is interesting how many ways there are to read the same book and the very different conclusions people come to from it.

Left Behind, was that the mess with Howie Mandel in it? Ugh… You might as well cast Moe and Curly in The Passion or William Shatner as Moses.

Hey bubba,

It has come to my understanding that we are not to try and draw conclusions from Revelations and prophecies. That is mans attempt to try to make sence of a spiritual battle and put it into physical current events.

Revelations speaks more in parables, while it prophecies.
The wisdom to understand these prophecies comes from being inline with the holy spirit and having the true meaning revealed. Not by trying some Code, or historical reference.

Peace be multiplied.

jerm

:cool:

My counter to that is folks have predicted the end hundreds of times supposedly based on the holy spirit adn they have been wrong every time. If there is going to be an end as the Christians believ, I am much more inclinded to listen to what the Man said, a thief in the night. I find it strange that something so very specifically stated by Jesus in the Gospels is somehow ignored by many who literaly interpret the Bible. If you literally interpret the Bible and the Man said there is no way any mortal man is going to know when it is coming, then I don’t think there should be much discussion as to when because no one knows.

Despite the split in beliefs with my folks, I think my dad had Christianity pretty well figured out. As he tells me, it is a very simple religion and all you need to know Jesus told us. Love your god and love your neighbor. The rest is semantics.

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Love your god and love your neighbor.


****Woop der’ it is… woop der’ it is! **** :)

YES! It is THAT simple. Mankind has managed to screw the thing up. NOT the other way around. However, IF you love your God, would you not accept his free gift?

BTW, a closer walk with God will make it a LOT easier to do the love thy neighbor thing. Trust me. :D

D