any tips?
I understand the basic pronciple of comping vocals - record several takes on different tracks and then take the best bits from each track and copy them to a new “master” - but was wondering about the best way to actually do this.
Do you copy and paste each bit to the new track, or mute the bits you don’t want or is there some better method of doing it.
Any insights into the methods you use would be very helpful.
Thanks.
One way that I have found successful is to put all the takes into a group. I then go through the song editing out the parts from the tracks that I don’t want - usually by cutting the parts to suit but sometimes using envelopes.
This isn’t so great if you want to cut and paste parts from once part of the track to another (eg to duplicate the good 2nd chorus for the bad 3rd one).
I then usually put the effects I want on the group rather than the individual files although doing it this way means I can if I want put some autotune or whatever on the odd phrases here and there.
If CPU/disk becomes a problem I render the group to a new track.
YMMV of course.
I don’t mean to fling poo (some people get very personal about their DAWs. My only point here is that sometimes you need a claw hammer, sometimes a ball peen, sometimes a sledge)… but N-track is not ideal for this purpose. I would recommend Reaper for this even if you do everything else in N and just bounce a finalized/rendered comp track into N from Reaper. The Reaper lanes feature lets you do comp track editing incredibly quickly.
the question you ask is like asking “whats the best way to make a Martini” you get a million answers and non taste as good as the one you make yourself -
for me CLARITY is paramount - so lets say that out of three takes one is the standout one but still needs a bit of treatment and luckily the other two takes are pretty good as well - before starting any replacement work i would render each take take to a seperate wave file (this way you dont lose anything if you make a mistake as you can aleays recall the original)- so below is the ideal situation - sometimes there are some FUDGES that have to be made to get it to work, but those are usually easy to deal with once youve got a clear picture in front of you -
i take the best take and put that as track 1 -
then i would put the other two takes below it forming tracks 2 and 3 -
now for the next bit i will be using the grid (in my case it ia always ON) for this job i have the grid spacimg set to BEAT and snap to grid is also ON -
i mute tracks 2 and 3, play through track 1 noting the poor spots - then using SPLICE i would cut out the bad bits of track 1 - they have to be replaced so getting rid on them now saves doing it later and if makes the job visually easier -
OK - so i noted two areas of track one that had to be replaced -done the above and spliced out the duff parts - now on tracks 2 and 3 i do the OPPOSITE, i splice out the places that are good on track 1 leaving only the choices for replacement on tracks 2 and 3 -
SOUNDS COMPLOCATED? - NO - look at the screenshot and you will see it is ac clear as day, and so is what comes next
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee177/eurodog6/myscreenshot-27.jpg
all i have to do is to mute tracks 2 and 3 and pull up from the lower tracks a replacement part and drop it into the hole(s) in track 1 - press play, does it match YES leave it there. NO try the other piece ETC - as i am using SNAP TO GRID the parts fit straight in without having to worry about lining them up -
when its right, render and jobs done -
grid settings go down to 128th of a measure so you can really get in there and sort out wvry small areas -
Dr J
Quote: (Bubbagump @ Oct. 09 2007, 5:29 PM)
I don't mean to fling poo (some people get very personal about their DAWs. My only point here is that sometimes you need a claw hammer, sometimes a ball peen, sometimes a sledge)... but N-track is not ideal for this purpose. I would recommend Reaper for this even if you do everything else in N and just bounce a finalized/rendered comp track into N from Reaper. The Reaper lanes feature lets you do comp track editing incredibly quickly.
Got to agree with you there Bubba, I'd do it in Reaper too nowadays but.....
Jeff,
I completely agree with Dr. J here. He is very patient and generous to have given such wonderful advice. The techniques he shares are very common and especially practical. Its also what many the “pro’s” currently do. So, you can reset assured that it would be a great habit to do exactly as he mentions.
~Melcon~
Quote: (Bubbagump @ Oct. 09 2007, 11:29 AM)
I don't mean to fling poo (some people get very personal about their DAWs. My only point here is that sometimes you need a claw hammer, sometimes a ball peen, sometimes a sledge)... but N-track is not ideal for this purpose. I would recommend Reaper for this even if you do everything else in N and just bounce a finalized/rendered comp track into N from Reaper. The Reaper lanes feature lets you do comp track editing incredibly quickly.
I will second that!
Yaz
(The 10lb Sledge Hammer works best too!
)
Quote: (Yaz @ Oct. 10 2007, 11:20 AM)
(The 10lb Sledge Hammer works best too!
)
Yeah, must get me one of those
Hi Gents:
This is one of the prime reasons that “Rendering Groups” would work so nice with-in n-Track.
If, for example you recorded four takes of a vocal track and you want to “PIECE” together parts of the four “Tracks” into one track…
the four tracks would be on the timeline and routed to a group strip…
After editing the vocal tracks to taste you render the group and there you have a completed vocal track with the vocal tracks still appearing on the timeline in case you need to go back and adjust something-or-other in one of the four vocal tracks to fit…
There are a bevy of other reasons why “Rendering Groups” would have it’s advantages…
Bill…
Hi Bill,
Sort of what you describe is what makes the lanes in Reaper that Bubba mentioned so dog gone powerful. Let’s take a lead vocal for example but it could be a guitar solo, flugel horn solo or whatever…
Insert a Track, assign an Input, Record Arm the track and go. Wanna grab another take? Just rewind to the beginning (or wherever) and click Record again. Do this for as many takes as you want. ALL the takes are there on that ONE track stacked one atop the other in the Z-order. Now choose “Show all Takes as Lanes”. BANG! All the takes appear on the time-line. Cut, copy, paste and edit to your hearts content from all the takes. Finally like what you hear? Right-click the track and choose “Render Items as new take”. DONE! This and a few other editing features in Reaper have really spoiled this old hack.
I AM NOT dissing n-Track here… put the guns and baseball bats away. I would like to get Flavio do a bit of looking around and incorporate some new editing features into n-Track. This is what the Reaper fellows have done. They took a look at Pro Tools, Cubase, Nuendo, Logic, Sonar etc and took the good bits, tossed the bad bits and came up with their own DAW software. It’s powerful, EASY to use (if I can get around in the program, anybody can!) and stable as the rock of Gibraltar. Sort of reminds me of n-Track a couple years ago… Now, don’t go out and grab Reaper if you don’t want or need to. Lobby Flavio to get the new goodies into n-Track! He added EDL support for a bunch of Reaper-ites for Pete’s sake! Flav is a big boy… he knows what this game is about…
D - still an n-Track supporter.
it is unfortunate D, that those who found R to be their salvation sre slowly being forced to look elsewhere for a DAW that is compatible with their skill level - i made this clear in the piece you BORROWED from my recent poat (all credit to you, you posted it intact without editing) - i estimate that by V3 R will be SON OF NUENDO, it looks like Jason has stars in his eyes and there are bugger bucks to be made from fishing in that pond than trawling the beach for driftwood -
yes R is good but TRACKTION (in my opinion is far better) also costs more - looking around the forums i see many dissafected N users have left R because it now outskils them and are using other DAWS that offer nothing -
OK, i like R but ehen it comes to people who have a problem in N, explaining how easy it is to do in another APP is only confusing the issue - if someone has invested in N then WE should try to offer a way of sorting it ont IN N - every DAW has a learning curve, it has taken you about a year to becoome provicient in R and now you can say “do this do that” but a person with a problem in N is not going to want to take a year before they can do it in that DAW, they want to do it in N today - i am not FLAMING you D i think that you have and still do contribute greatly to this forum, but for the needs of new comers it would be beneficial to keep it on an even playing field by just explsining how to do it in N -
if i could put a finger on what is wrong with N compared with R, then it would have to be that in R you see what you get its pretty clear what X does and X is there in front of you, finding a feature in N is like poking around in the dark wearing a blindfold - N should have A FEATURE PAGE that explains to the user what it does and they can select it from there - AND WE NEED MIDI IN THE TIMELINE (as per TRACKTION)its the piano roll that deserves the GUNS and BASEBALL BATS in N -
example from another post in this forum, where to retrieve tracks from another song and open them in a new song you have to go to ADD CHANNEL - UHHHHH - see my point -
yours Dr J
Cool Doc. Yep, like I said, I would like Flavio to keep the n-Track “paradigm” in mind and look at how a few other programs do things. Add or IMPROVE upon the good bits of the other programs once implemented into n and boot out the garbage. I don’t want to diss one program or the other, I’d like to see everybody get better. It will only benefit us users right?
Peace out… gotta go to work… sigh
D
Quote: (DR Jackrabbit @ Oct. 11 2007, 7:57 AM)
- i estimate that by V3 R will be SON OF NUENDO, it looks like Jason has stars in his eyes and there are bugger bucks to be made from fishing in that pond than trawling the beach for driftwood -
I really hope you are wrong Dr J... By the way it's "Justin" not "Jason" and I'm hoping he has enough money and stars already from his previous exploits (Justin Frankel at Wikipedia).
Of course we do run the risk of him getting bored.
Your comments about solving a problem in N with an answer in N are very valid and I too would be frustrated by such an answer, but I also agree with Bubba about using the right tool for the job. For me that means I use R for most of my tracking nowadays.
As for the state of n-track, I run a Software Development team as a day job and as far as I see it, n-track is a "1st generation" product whereas Reaper is "2nd generation". In the programming world we don't often get a chance to start with a blank piece of paper, park the old application(s), learn from its mistakes and start again, but when we do it's easy to get a "Reaper". A ground-up re-write is a big "ask" for Flavio but it may be where the future of n-track lies.
First of all, the ease of using nTrack and Reaper doesn’t exist. It takes a little reading (that’s what the manuals are for) on behalf of the buyer/user. I personally use and like both apps. Both have pros and cons, but so do all DAWs. As far as Reaper users helping others with nTrack, I think they are the best! I try to help but am limited to knowledge, especially midi.
When it comes to midi, BUBBA, CAN I BORROW THAT SLEDGE HAMMER? 
Flame On!
Yaz 
Quote: (DR Jackrabbit @ Oct. 11 2007, 2:57 AM)
but for the needs of new comers it would be beneficial to keep it on an even playing field by just explsining how to do it in N -
Meh, but I would still direct a newb to a wave editor for certain tasks too. I think all of these discussions of dogma are fruitless. The point to a forum is community input. Let the reader glean what value they will from what is said and leave it at that. I can understand being peeved at misleading or misinformed posts... But it's not like I didn't spend 8 years using N as my exclusive DAW. I know what it can and can't do quite well and in this one area especially, Reaper kills N and really is the best tool for the job I know of and for this one task would take the average user 10-15 minutes to figure out.
Hi Bubba,
Well you know I gotta agree with you on that. It’s like, you wouldn’t recommend a guy use a tire iron to take the back off his watch. Same thing here, different tools for different tasks. For example; I setup a MOTU 24I/O based rig for my old church a few years ago. n-Track V4.?? was bought and licensed for it. That puppy tracks ~20 channels at 24/44.1 for over an hour every service. The guy I left “in-charge” calls one day, “Hey there’s a new version of n-Track and I also seen XXX software too. Should we upgrade or even change?” I said “NO! It ain’t broke, so don’t fix it!” They are still happily tracking away with n V4.??. Now if dude called me up and said “I wanna start recording at home like you do with all 'dem fancy virtual instruments and MIDI and stuff. What do you recommend?” Sadly, it wouldn’t be n-Track. I’d steer him toward Reaper, Tracktion or similar… probably Reaper due to the low cost, solid reliability and performance. If he was just interested in banging in a few audio tracks tape-deck style with basic editing, I’d show him n-Track and let him pick what was most “comfortable”.
The DAW wars are not worth gettin’ our britches in a knot over. Make the best of what you got, get more, whatever… use 'em all if that’s what it takes. It’s about music ain’t it? Not “My DAW is SUPERIOR in every way! Nah-nah!” Who needs that junk? Besides a little competition is a healthy thing. Us users benefit in the long run.
D
I do a variation of Dr’s technique - here’s my procedure. I’ve gotten quite fast at this and, while I’ve never used the lanes feature in Reaper, I have not felt that n-Track was cumbersome in this regard.
The first thing I do is I save a new song version for every major change I make - I just number them Song1, Song2, Song3, etc. By the time I’m done mixing I’ve usually got 20 to 30 song files saved. That way if I screw things up I can easily go back to the previous version. I also use only non-destructive editing so that I can always go back. The song files don’t take up a lot of room so this doesn’t use up too much hard drive space.
1) Record several vocal takes. For my projects there may be as many as 7 to 10 tracks of vocals because we may do certain parts several times trying to get a good take.
2) I normally sit down with the artist to comp the vocal. Most of the time we agree on the best take, sometimes he/she gets their way, sometimes I get my way.
3) Add a new track above (or below) all of the vocal tracks.
3) I play the first phrase for each recorded track in succession and we determine which is our favorite. I then do a quick non-destructive edit to isolate the section of the chosen vocal, hold down alt+shift and move the part up to the empty track. This moves the part while keeping it in the same place relative to the timeline.
4) Repeat for each phrase of the vocal. I find it very quick to do the edits and move the part up to the blank track.
5) When we have picked all the vocal parts we’ll play the vocal to make sure we’re happy with it. Sometimes we’ll determine that, say, the same vocal inflection was used too many times in the song, and we’ll go back and choose a couple different parts. In that case I’ll non-destructively remove the offending part and move the new one into position.
6) Now I have a complete vocal track and I remove all the raw takes and save a new song version. Remember, if we decide later that we don’t like something in the vocal I can easily go back to the previous version, make the change, and move on.
I use the comped vocal track to apply all of the necessary plugins. Now I have a single comped track and my screen isn’t cluttered with all of the vocal takes. This is why I don’t like to group them and just choose the individual parts.
For me, this is like a lot of things in recording. N-Track may not have the most elegant way to do it but I’ve worked with it so much now that I’m pretty fast at the process. I suppose one of these days I’ll have to try the Reaper lanes feature but this process works pretty well for now.