What tha?
Hey guys
I was looking at these ONyx Mackie boards and noticed it has a DB-25 output for all 16 channels (split into two eights per DB-25)
Now I am looking at the cables for DB-25 and they have 4 XLR male and 4 XLR female?
I don’t get it.
Mackie says you can use the DB-25 for monitoring, (which is what I would love to do, use them as individual monitor outs for all 16 channels)but how can I do that unless the DB-25 chord has 8 of the same type of outs?
Are these 4 male XLR’s stereo or something? is that how you get 8 channels? (8 mono)
keep shinin
jerm 
That would be known as you are looking at the wrong cables. This is what you want:
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DA88XM10
DB25 can be used for ins or outs… some units are 4in/4out on one DB25… or 8 in, or 8 out or…
Quote: (Bubbagump @ Nov. 14 2009, 7:43 PM)
That would be known as you are looking at the wrong cables. This is what you want:
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DA88XM10
DB25 can be used for ins or outs... some units are 4in/4out on one DB25... or 8 in, or 8 out or....
Thanx for the quick reply bubba
Ok that makes sense it's not like a standard computer out, but modified per device.
I have seen these with 8 1/4 inch TRS as well, but they are stereo, and my line mixer is mono.....eek. I guess I could get adapters....ugh, I was hoping for an easy fix....
I'm considering getting the Onyx 1640, if I can utilize the DB-25 to give me individual outs from each channel (up to 16, but I only need 8 at the moment) otherwise I have to go with a Soundcraft Spirit or Allen Heath board since their 8 and 16 channel boards have direct outs on each channel.
I'd love to get the OnyX just to have the option later of using the firewire to record live gigs!.
keep shinin
jerm
Fundamental misunderstanding of TRS… TRS in this case is for balanced signals. Just plug them in and go. You just won’t have the advantage of TRS in this case as the R won’t get used, but with a short cable run, you’ll be fine.
Quote: (Bubbagump @ Nov. 14 2009, 9:12 PM)
Fundamental misunderstanding of TRS.... TRS in this case is for balanced signals. Just plug them in and go. You just won't have the advantage of TRS in this case as the R won't get used, but with a short cable run, you'll be fine.
That may be a problem then, this is no short run,
first the signal is going to through the returns on system snake to the stage, from there a 50 foot 1/4 mono snake takes it to a line mixer for the monitor mix.
I am still trying to wrap my brain around the whole "insert" thing as well, how some of these snakes are 8 stereo on one end and 16 fan tailed mono on the other?
My LA Multigate does not have ins and outs, only ins for 16 channels of programmable gate/limiting.....right now I don't even know what type of snake I need to run 8 channels into it, and how the signal gets back into the insert on a stereo plug?
Thanx for all the help so far...
keep shinin
jerm
Quote: (jeremysdemo @ Nov. 15 2009, 5:34 AM)
I am still trying to wrap my brain around the whole "insert" thing as well, how some of these snakes are 8 stereo on one end and 16 fan tailed mono on the other?
Again, NOT stereo. You have to get this thought that TRS or pin outs are automatically indicative of stereo or mono signals. A true insert is a send and a return on a single cable. It uses one conductor as a send, the other conductor a return, and then a common ground. This is all unbalanced of course.
So you would have 8 on the insert side which leads to 8 send and 8 return (16 total) on the other side of the snake for connecting to (likely) compressors.
Can I ask, what in the world are you doing here? You sound a bit in over you head.
Quote: (Bubbagump @ Nov. 15 2009, 11:34 PM)
Quote: (jeremysdemo @ Nov. 15 2009, 5:34 AM)
I am still trying to wrap my brain around the whole "insert" thing as well, how some of these snakes are 8 stereo on one end and 16 fan tailed mono on the other?
Again, NOT stereo. You have to get this thought that TRS or pin outs are automatically indicative of stereo or mono signals. A true insert is a send and a return on a single cable. It uses one conductor as a send, the other conductor a return, and then a common ground. This is all unbalanced of course.
So you would have 8 on the insert side which leads to 8 send and 8 return (16 total) on the other side of the snake for connecting to (likely) compressors.
Can I ask, what in the world are you doing here? You sound a bit in over you head.
I am definitely over my head! lol
I went into more detail in my other thread, this first post was supposed to be an update to that, but it became it's own.
So you seem to be indicating I need a snake with what looks like stereo plugs on both sides (not saying they ARE stereo, or send any kind of stereo sound through, it's mono sound...) they just LOOK like a stereo plug (like a headphone end) instead of LOOKING like a mono plug (like a guitar chord).
Since the LA Multigate does not have outs, I can only assume all 16 channels it has are two way, using these "stereo" looking snakes.....
If I were to use a device that had sends and returns (like my Rane Compressor) then I understand the snake would look like a stereo jack on one side and have two mono (looking) plugs on the other, one to send one to return. (or possibly XLR)
What am I trying to do?
I would like to use the LA Mulitgate along with a Digitech S100 to change FX via Midi CC# embedded in a midi file played back by the GNX4 (that is synced up to backing tracks, violins, bass, sound FX etc etc).
THe multigate would be used on drum channels, to cut off the background noise from the overheads, as well as enhance the kick drum at certain parts of songs whatever is needed, and also kick in on the vocal track at certain parts that need to be louder that are not sung loud.
Basically I want it to do everything that is done on a CD but through plugs to balance and enhance the sound of the vocals, and drums.
keep shinin
jerm
Quote: (jeremysdemo @ Nov. 16 2009, 4:58 PM)
[quote=jeremysdemo,Nov. 15 2009, 5:34 AM]
What am I trying to do?
I would like to use the LA Mulitgate along with a Digitech S100 to change FX via Midi CC# embedded in a midi file played back by the GNX4 (that is synced up to backing tracks, violins, bass, sound FX etc etc).
THe multigate would be used on drum channels, to cut off the background noise from the overheads, as well as enhance the kick drum at certain parts of songs whatever is needed, and also kick in on the vocal track at certain parts that need to be louder that are not sung loud.
Basically I want it to do everything that is done on a CD but through plugs to balance and enhance the sound of the vocals, and drums.
keep shinin
jerm
I still have no idea what you are trying to do or the complete lay out of the equipment you are using. What do monitor mixers and everything else have to do with any of this? Start over as I think you think I saw the first two movies... and I am just now walking into half way through the end of the third one. I read your other thread and still have no clue what you are up to...
Quote: (Bubbagump @ Nov. 16 2009, 6:40 PM)
Quote: (jeremysdemo @ Nov. 16 2009, 4:58 PM)
[quote=jeremysdemo,Nov. 15 2009, 5:34 AM]
What am I trying to do?
I would like to use the LA Mulitgate along with a Digitech S100 to change FX via Midi CC# embedded in a midi file played back by the GNX4 (that is synced up to backing tracks, violins, bass, sound FX etc etc).
THe multigate would be used on drum channels, to cut off the background noise from the overheads, as well as enhance the kick drum at certain parts of songs whatever is needed, and also kick in on the vocal track at certain parts that need to be louder that are not sung loud.
Basically I want it to do everything that is done on a CD but through plugs to balance and enhance the sound of the vocals, and drums.
keep shinin
jerm
I still have no idea what you are trying to do or the complete lay out of the equipment you are using. What do monitor mixers and everything else have to do with any of this? Start over as I think you think I saw the first two movies... and I am just now walking into half way through the end of the third one. I read your other thread and still have no clue what you are up to...
I do appreciate that, (taking the time to read the other thread)
Is it that uncommon for groups to use gates/limiters/compressors/Fx in their live signal chain off a mixing board?
I think the only thing different than that that I am trying to achieve is using midi to sequence all the changes by presets (instead of a sound guy making any on the fly changes that will not be set throughout a performance)
I got the Midi sequence part for the devices down they are all chained together, (when I want the limiter/gate on channel one to go to a specific setting at 1:23 sec, it does, when I want the guitar to go to a heavy amp with sustain and reverb at 2:20 it does, when I want the vocals to both be compressed heavily and long echo at 3:30 min. in a song it does)
what I don't have down is the signal chain, that is what the other thread was about.
The types of insert snakes that are needed to pull this off using the I/o on 8 channels of a Mackie Onyx 1640.
The monitor snake issue that spawned this first "update" post was a complete aside, having nothing to do with the signal processing chain, was really helping me decide between the Allen and HEath Mixwiz, the Soundcraft, or the Mackie ONYX.
Since I can use the DB-25 for monitoring all 16 channels, I went with the Mackie, since it seems the most sound investment having the built in firewire to record 16 simultaneous tracks to the computer at once.
thanx again for bearing with me, obviously if I don't know what I am doing, it is going to be hard for others to.
Basically in the other thread I describe some gear trying to be assembled and routed for a live three piece group.
keep shinin
jerm
As for groups to use all those effects, yes to a certain level. When I have mixed large country acts, we spend half the damn afternoon tuning gates and the like. So it is certainly done and why a real live big time pro production sounds like it does.
Also, what you are doing MIDI wise is very common too. Often times the mixer is automated to different scenes. If you are going the MIDI route (as some acts that are very tied to automated lighting and video do) you of course will need everyone on a click to sync with the MIDI.
It sounds to me what you are doing is pretty straight forward then. For dynamics effects (gates/comps) and EQ you will run those to the inserts of the board. Typical order is EQ, gate, comp. Squished transients make for confused and chatty gates. (Again, where does this 50 feet figure come from?) Then everything else will run off of an aux send. Make sense?
So where is the complication? Or am I just over complicating?
Quote: (Bubbagump @ Nov. 16 2009, 8:32 PM)
As for groups to use all those effects, yes to a certain level. When I have mixed large country acts, we spend half the damn afternoon tuning gates and the like. So it is certainly done and why a real live big time pro production sounds like it does.
Also, what you are doing MIDI wise is very common too. Often times the mixer is automated to different scenes. If you are going the MIDI route (as some acts that are very tied to automated lighting and video do) you of course will need everyone on a click to sync with the MIDI.
It sounds to me what you are doing is pretty straight forward then. For dynamics effects (gates/comps) and EQ you will run those to the inserts of the board. Typical order is EQ, gate, comp. Squished transients make for confused and chatty gates. (Again, where does this 50 feet figure come from?) Then everything else will run off of an aux send. Make sense?
So where is the complication? Or am I just over complicating?
The 50 ft has to do with the monitoring set up.
Just like you do a return to the amps near the stage, I want to do an 8 channel return to a line mixer on the stage for the wireless monitor system.
My line mixer happens to have 1/4 inputs on it. (this way if the drummer says "i need more guitar in my ear, I can adjust his mix accordingly) and yes we all are listening to a click track to keep in tempo, and yes I do eventually want to incorporate lights(once I figure out what the best affordable light module for this is)
There are snakes that have 1/4 inch returns, and I happen to own a 50ft 8 channel 1/4" mono snake. (that I could either run off a boards direct out on each channel or in my own set up off the main snakes returns.
I may be over thinking this as well, the few things you have said have help me understand DB-25 and insert snakes better, as far as what kind I need for this set up.
I am not really sure what and aux send is, or how to use the aux area of a aboard.....would love to learn more about that tho.
keep shinin
jerm
What mixer is sending to the monitors? I bet you a nickle it has balanced outs.
Quote: (Bubbagump @ Nov. 17 2009, 10:30 AM)
What mixer is sending to the monitors? I bet you a nickle it has balanced outs.
I am not using monitors, I am using a shure wireless monitor system (with earbuds).
I guess the Onyx is sending to the other line mixer that is going to be used to adjust the levels for different monitor mixes then transmitted by the shure.
keep shinin
jerm
HEY bubba,
will this work for the monitor system?
DB-25
It says it us for a Yamaha i think, just don’t know enough about these to know if it will work with my ONYX 1620.
IF so I can get this pretty cheap, even cheaper than a Hosa, and it is better brand?
keep shinin
jerm
Quote:
I am not using monitors, I am using a shure wireless monitor system (with earbuds).
That's not monitors?
Quote: (phoo @ Nov. 21 2009, 6:27 PM)
Quote:
I am not using monitors, I am using a shure wireless monitor system (with earbuds).
That's not monitors?
if you follow the other thread where wox is talking about the Crown amps powering a monitor system, no.
Bubba did say he read that thread and still had no idea where I was going with this, I am curious however what balanced outs have anything of significance to do with a closed earphone monitor system....not like anyone else would hear any transient sounds should they occur in the signal path....
keep shinin
jerm
I’ve read this thread and have a hard time figuring out what you are trying to do. A monitor system is a monitor system. It doesn’t matter what type of speaker system is being used. Wireless earbuds or large speakers facing back – doesn’t matter.
Sounds like to me you are trying to split the signals being sent to the mains so that the soundman out front can mix the mains and you can mix the monitors on stage,separately and so your mixes don’t interfere with each other.
Why balanced matters has to do with the signal chain, when and where you are splitting the signals. It also is relevant to the type snake being used to return the signals to the stage monitor mixer.
You do not want to used inserts to send an unbalanced signal from the mains mixer to the monitor mixer then back to the mains. From what I’ve gathered from what you are saying this is what it sounds like to me. Using a 50 foot unbalanced config will mean 100 foot round trip before it gets to the mains. You can probably get away with 50 feet one way unbalanced for monitors only, but there are a number of problems that might make it unacceptable regardless.
I’d suggest splitting the signals on the stage so the monitors and mains are totally separate.
Quote: (phoo @ Nov. 22 2009, 10:46 AM)
I've read this thread and have a hard time figuring out what you are trying to do. A monitor system is a monitor system. It doesn't matter what type of speaker system is being used. Wireless earbuds or large speakers facing back -- doesn't matter.
Sounds like to me you are trying to split the signals being sent to the mains so that the soundman out front can mix the mains and you can mix the monitors on stage,separately and so your mixes don't interfere with each other.
Why balanced matters has to do with the signal chain, when and where you are splitting the signals. It also is relevant to the type snake being used to return the signals to the stage monitor mixer.
You do not want to used inserts to send an unbalanced signal from the mains mixer to the monitor mixer then back to the mains. From what I've gathered from what you are saying this is what it sounds like to me. Using a 50 foot unbalanced config will mean 100 foot round trip before it gets to the mains. You can probably get away with 50 feet one way unbalanced for monitors only, but there are a number of problems that might make it unacceptable regardless.
I'd suggest splitting the signals on the stage so the monitors and mains are totally separate.
Good suggestions! if that is what was going on.
IF you look at the stats on the ONYX 1629 it has DB-25 out that can be used for monitoring.....which is what I hope to use those dedicated outs on each channel for.
This is not involving the main signals at all, in theory they proceed from the stage snake to the booth mixer, out the inserts through the compressor and other FX and back into the mixer back through the snake returns to go to the amps, and the "split" for the monitors is done inside the mixer (I think the DB-25 can be set post/fade/FX, OR pre, which would make it ideal, there is a little button on each channel for that).....
The snake I am using is a Carvin SK24 24 channel snake with 8 xlr returns.
I was planning on using two of the returns for the mains. while the other 6 would be used to send signals back to the monitor mixer.
My GNX4 has two outs for guitar so I was going to send one of them directly to the monitor mixer bypassing the snake and booth mixer, and do the same with the shure wireless mic since they have 1/4" outs as well.
I know it is a lot to sift though and i have not done a great job explaining it, so I do appreciate all the efforts you guys have made in bearing with me.
keep shinin
jerm
