Drum Mic

n-Track Studio Discussion Forum
1

What mic where?

2

So I’m going to record my little brothers band, and I haven’t done live drums myself in a while. I have more mics at my disposal now than I did a few years ago - I’m looking for recommendations on how I should setup my mics.

They’re looking for a “studio” drum sound (I know, I know). Think Sevendust - nice Lar’s Ulrich type kick sound, crisp hi hats and full toms. Do we need to make the kick skin a little flappy to help get that kick sound? I might just go the sound replacement route for the kick too.

Here’s my current mic locker:

Shure SM57
Shure SM58
Shure PG58
MXL 990 LD Condensor
Superlux LD Condensor
AKG Blues SD Condensor

I’m thinking 57 on snare, 58 on kick, pg58 on center tom, the to ld as overheads and the AKG out a few feet in front of the kick. I’m open to picking up a mic or two (not too expensive) if there is a crucial piece I’m missing.

3

Do you mean AKG blue line? If so, what capsule(s) have you got?

I guess there’s two things. One is how can you best capture the sound of the drusm with what you’ve got, and one is how can you capture the sound you want. I think you’ll find the second one requires more/different mics.

However, if it’s about getting the best recording of the drum kit you can then I’d be tempted to stick one mic out the front to capture the sound of the kit, and then stick the 57 on the snare, and possibly reinforce the kick if necessary (probably with the 58, although you’ll be hard pushed to get a full meaty kick sound with it).

If you are looking at spending, how much are you considering, and is renting an option for you?

Also, how many channels have you got?

-Dan

4
Think Sevendust - nice Lar's Ulrich type kick sound, crisp hi hats and full toms. Do we need to make the kick skin a little flappy to help get that kick sound?

Two of the guys here (BrentG, KennethA) suggested to me loosening the kick skin pretty much as loose as it will go. Compress and gate the daylights out of it. I've had good results with a dynamic on the inside next to the beater skin, and on just outside the front skin, blended together.

In your case using the gear you've got, I'd try a 58 inside, and an LD some distance away, 2-3 feet (or even further, get the bottom end waves developed) from the front of the drum, isolated from the rest of the room and kit by a blanket tunnel. 57 on the snare, pg58 on the floor tom (put your middle finger over the ball while hitting the floor tom, moving back, forwards and around until the hairs on the back of your fingers vibrate the most - this will be the most resonant place to put the mic), and the other two LD mics as overheads.

Willy.
5

Oops, actually the “AKG” is an AT (Audio Technica) :stuck_out_tongue:

MB400C

Some good tips, keep 'em coming :D

I have access to a few other mics as well - a pair of C1000 (those are AKG’s) condensors, a EDIT AKG D112 Kick Mic (which you think would be the obvious choice, but I didn’t like how it sounded on our last recording, maybe because of improper use), a bunch of Berry SM58 clones, another SM57 and a Unidyne 57 type. I could budget maybe $200 if there’s something missing.

I’ve got 16 inputs, and 11 preamps at my disposal - which I’m hoping will be enough, I’ll use some of the extra tracks for running guide guitar/bass tracks.

6

I am no expert, but what 'd like to try is the D112 mixed with one of the LD condensors on the kick. The C1000 for overheads. 57 or 58 on the rest of the stuff. Bet it would sound killer.

7

I’m currently recording a rock band and doing drums now (in fact, we’re recording drums tonight). I know these guys well (they are pretty patient) and we have been experimenting a lot with the drum/mic setup. We’ve been fine tuning and last Sunday we got this sucker really dialed in. Best drum sound I’ve ever gotten. I’m using mostly different mics than what you have but here’s a description of what’s working well for me right now…

I’m using 8 channels total for the drums.

For the toms and upper snare I’m using an Audio-Technica drum pak (4 mics). This was a hundred bucks at Guitar Center. These little mics sound great to me, in spite of their cost. I use one mic for the floor tom plus another tom that are sitting right together. I put the mic about 2" from the point where the toms come together. I use one of the regular drum mics that came in the kit for the other tom about 1" from the rim.

I mic both the top and bottom of the snare. For the top I use an AT drum mic and for the bottom I use an AT MB2000 which has a really hot top end. The bottom mic makes for a really crisp snare crack with this mic and placement.

For the kick I use an AT 25. The big thing on on kick drums that I have found is that a small variation in mic placement can make a big difference in sound. You have to record various mic placements and see what sounds best for each session. This takes time but is worth the effort.

I use three overheads. For the left and right overheads I use AT MB4000Cs, just like yours. These have worked great for overheads. Then, for this project, I tried using an MXL 2001 large diaphram condenser for the middle. I keep my overheads within about 3’ to 4’ of the drums. I’m not trying to get a lot of room sound because I add reverb to the tracks later.

One of the things that I changed that made quite a difference with this project is the placement of the left and right overheads. I moved them back so they are sort of over the shoulders of the drummer (they are a couple feet to either side of him actually). The right one points at the high hat and the left one points at the floor tom. This placement really tightened things up.

Last but not least, I can’t emphasize drum tuning enough. The drummer for this group has learned how to tune his drums and wow, what a difference. He put on new heads, tuned everything, and the sound was just beautiful. If you can talk the band into it, they should seriously consider getting new heads and hiring a drum tech to tune the drums if the drummer isn’t experienced in tuning. Every time they listen to that recording they’ll be glad they did.

One other tip. If they are going to buy new heads for recording, single ply heads have a better attack and more articulation for recording than double ply heads.

8

Cool! How are you mounting the mics on toms and such? Rim clips? Boom stands?

9

Good question on the mounting. I spent a bunch of money on drum mic mounting clips and ended up just going back to boom stands. I’m not totally sure about this but I think that the sound is better using the boom stands. I think the vibration from the drum rim is transmitted through the clip to the mic which might muddy things up.

10

So we recorded drum tracks this weekend. I ended up picking up an extra AT MB4000C so I could use the pair for overheads. I also bought a Superlux drum mic kit. They’re cheap, but I was happy with the quality of the cheap LD condensor I have from them so I was was willing to take the risk. They don’t sound bad at all for the $115 I spent on them (4 tom/snare mics and one kick mic).

I mic’d the snare with the 57, each tom and the kick with it’s own Superlux. I used the spare superlux for the hi hat. Then used the AT’s for the overheads, behind the the drummers (my brother) shoulders (thanks for the tip 8th Note!). I setup the overheads so that the snare was more or less in the center of the stereo image. One thing I noticed listening to the recorded tracks later (with rested ears) is there’s this sort of “plink” sound when all the mics are on with the rhythm of the beat - I think it’s some sort of frequency buildup, hopefully I’ll be able to fix it when I start eq’ing the individual mics.

All in all, I’m pretty happy with the sound considering it was my first attempt. I didn’t quite get the kick sound I wanted, but I’ll probably replace the kick anyway. The snare sound could have been punchier, but my bro has a steel snare - it doesn’t seem to have the same thwack that a wood snare has. I’ll see if I can’t post some sound clips when I cobble a decent mix together.

Just wanted to give an update, thanks for the suggestions everyone.

11
All in all, I'm pretty happy with the sound considering it was my first attempt. I didn't quite get the kick sound I wanted, but I'll probably replace the kick anyway. The snare sound could have been punchier, but my bro has a steel snare - it doesn't seem to have the same thwack that a wood snare has. I'll see if I can't post some sound clips when I cobble a decent mix together.

Sorry this is late, but one thing that helps immensely with getting a fat snare sound is a bottom snare mic. If there's anyway to throw a mic on the bottom skin of the snare, do it! It helps to bring the snare out in the mix.

For the kick, I would suggest using a technique that has been discussed on this forum (though I haven't seen it for a while): find an old 10" or 12" speaker and wire it into an instrument cable or an XLR cable, and then run it into your favorite preamp. It's good at picking up the low end of the kick because it has a large surface area. You can then use another one of your mics to capture the attack. It's done wonders for me!

I hope that this helps in the future =)

Drummer
12

You might want to check the pictures of my set as a comparison to whatever you’re doing.

http://www.phootoons.com/phootunes/studio/index.html

I don’t have a finised example ready to post that was recorded with this config, but one is on the way in the next few weeks (finished song). I’ve been very happy with the results. This is a link to a drums only submix. It’s a whole song, so it’s a straight beat most of the way:

http://www.phootoons.com/phootunes/studio/just_drums_mix_09.wma

A few things to notice:
—The tom mics are cheap Radio Shack Instrument mics. They’ve got a nice natural sound on the toms. Because these are so cheap (I got them on sale for about $25 each) you might could pick up a few to open up the other mics for other things. I don’t know if they are still available or the current price if they are.
—The mic on the front head of the kick (no hole, little padding) is a Peavey large diaphragm dynamic. It’s probably similar to the AKG. I was very surprised at the sound and amount of snap from that mic where it is. The only reason any gating was needed was to get rid of a little ring (there was no gating used on any other mics). A slight tuning change could have fixed that, or a towel or small pillow leaning against the front head.
—There is a Marshall MXL57 (?? hmm…I can remember the number) LD condenser between the kick and the snare. This picks up the whole set and I used it HEAVILY limited and mixed in just a little to bring in some room sound and attack to the snare and kick. It wasn’t needed in the classic sense but it made the whole set sound more natural. This mic has no pad and WILL distort when used on drums, though the sound seems ok anyway. Virtually all the room sound is from this mix. Lose this track and the drums become very dry.
—Most of the final sound came from the overheads. These are LD Behringer’s with the -10db pad switch on.
The snare mic was pointed below the top rim of the snare. That seems to work better for some reason (snare or mic? don’t know). The mic is a Peavey dynamic but it sounds virtually identical to an SM57. It seems to pick up more body when used this way but still has plenty of attack (it’s an old Billy Cobham trick). It sounds much more natural than putting the mic right over the top head.

Tricks needed to bring it all together:
—Measure the distance from each overhead to the middle of the snare (center of the batter head)and the middle of the kick (I used the middle of the top of the shell). Make the distances all exactly the same - a few inches difference can drastically change the sound (phasing stuff). That will put the kick and snare dead centered in the stereo spread of the overheads.
—During mixdown offset each individual recorded track so that the attack if each individually miced drum is in perfect sync with the corresponding attack in the overheads. This will GREATLY tighten up the sound. A sign this need to be done is if flipping the phase on any tracks makes the sound better. I don’t know how they did it before digital made this really easy. :)
–Tune the drum slightly higher than they seem like they need to be, except the kick. That may need to be lower. I’m still experimenting there. This is a very subjective thing. I really like low toms (Ian Paice on Deep Purple Live in Japan), so to get that kind of deep I’d need to use white coated head instead of clear. My drums are 1967 Ludwigs so they have that deep sound naturally with while coated heads when tuned down or that Ginger Baker sound when tuned up. For the current song I was going for something different so I used clear on the toms, tuned tighter with a bit of padding held down by the mic clips…

13

About that speaker kick drum method drummer mentioned - I bet you have the superlux pra218 kick mic? Is that the number? Anyway, IIRC, and that is the mic, it combines really well with the speaker method. But put a pad on the spealer - 20 db would be good, 30 wouldn’t hurt, usually - all that speaker real estate makes for a very hot output.

Speaker of snare micing - how did you place the snare mic? I saw a live Los Lobos thing on TV, and they had the mic actually over the rim of the snare to keep the HH and stuff out as much as possible - I tried it, it works - really helps tame the HH.

:)

I think those superlux mics are really a steal for totally parsimonious folks like me. :D

14

Nice playing Phoo!

I like the kick sound you’re getting. The snare is very clear too. Sounds good. It might be my speakers at work here, but the hi-hat and cymbals sound a little thin, though that might be better in a full mix I suppose. Another challenge for me was that my brother is a pretty busy drummer, lots of rolls, double kicks, crashes and chinas going off everywhere in their songs - that’s a lot of stuff to have to pay attention to on my first time out :stuck_out_tongue:

I picked up the DRK-F5 kit, which includes the Fk-2 for the kick and 4 Ft-4’s. Not as good as the PRA218a, but it worked in a pinch and for my budget :)
http://www.avlex.com/pdfs/DRK_F5H3.pdf

I placed the snare mic very much like Phoo does, though I’m afraid I should have had it a little closer than I did. Keep the tips and clips coming!

15

The cymbals are a bit thin, or bright at least. There is a bit of high shelf up there on the overheads. It’s hard to tell if it’s too much until it gets mixed into the song, so I left this submix as-is (why bother until there are more tracks?). I can’t hear up there anyway so I rely on visuals (Har-Bal). It’s a very unreliable method but keeps me in the ballpark, then I rely on other folks ears, and lots of speaks/rooms/systems, for the final say-so. The high-shelf boost was definitely pulled down some in the later full mixes.

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Quote (uncoiled @ Nov. 29 2004,16:47)
Nice playing Phoo!

I like the kick sound you're getting. The snare is very clear too. Sounds good. It might be my speakers at work here, but the hi-hat and cymbals sound a little thin, though that might be better in a full mix I suppose. Another challenge for me was that my brother is a pretty busy drummer, lots of rolls, double kicks, crashes and chinas going off everywhere in their songs - that's a lot of stuff to have to pay attention to on my first time out :P

I picked up the DRK-F5 kit, which includes the Fk-2 for the kick and 4 Ft-4's. Not as good as the PRA218a, but it worked in a pinch and for my budget :)
http://www.avlex.com/pdfs/DRK_F5H3.pdf

I placed the snare mic very much like Phoo does, though I'm afraid I should have had it a little closer than I did. Keep the tips and clips coming!

Phoo is much too modest to admit to it, but he's an awesome drummer....easily and by far the best I've ever played with. Rock solid and steady, that's our phoo. Just thought I'd throw that in there. :D
17

You might find something of use here:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb01/articles/drummix.asp

I’ve seen a couple really good posts about miking a kit with just 4 mikes (to which you can always add more mikes for various purposes). Unfortunately I can’t find them among my saved bookmarks – perhaps someone knows & can post those links (I learned 'em from folks here).

In one case, a good point was made about an overhead stereo pair. I would have assumed to put the overheads arranged left-and-right symmetrically about the fore-aft axis of the set – that is, the obvious way. But they pointed out that you generally want the snare and kick in the center of the audio image. So, looking at your kit from the top, draw an imaginary line from the center of the snare to the center of the bass, and use that as the mid-line between the left and right side for the overhead pair. (Then they added a mike for hihat on one side and floor toms on the other, or something like that, and it’s always nice to have an additional mike or two on the kick and one on the snare.)

So, even though you have a mike on the kick and the snare, you still want the overheads to put those drums in the ideal image location rather than skewed to one side or the other. Assuming you want a stereo overhead pair, that is.

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Quote (Drummer @ Nov. 29 2004,13:33)
For the kick, I would suggest using a technique that has been discussed on this forum (though I haven't seen it for a while): find an old 10" or 12" speaker and wire it into an instrument cable or an XLR cable, and then run it into your favorite preamp. It's good at picking up the low end of the kick because it has a large surface area. You can then use another one of your mics to capture the attack. It's done wonders for me!

I hope that this helps in the future =)

Drummer

Hey drummer,
I'd love to try your speaker idea, only one problem, I don't hold a PHD in recording technology. So If it's not too much trouble could someone explain to me, in laymens terms how to do this. IE What is a XLR cable?
I'm using a Beringer Mixer, I think it has pre-amp, I know it has phantom power for condenser mics. But I don't want to plug the wrong cable into the wrong input and ZAAAM!
I'm workin' with limited mics here, so this might help me free up a condenser for an overhead. I'd probably still use a dynamic to get the snap from the kick, but this suggestion should help capturing the low end.
Oh yeah, and as far as positioning on the speaker?
BTW, I'm not too bright, and a little slow so if you could really dummy this up it might help me get past my handicaps.

Thanks guys...
jerm
:;):
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Quote (jeremysdemo @ Nov. 29 2004,18:33)
[quote=Drummer,Nov. 29 2004,13:33] I don't hold a PHD in recording technology. So If it's not too much trouble could someone explain to me, in laymens terms how to do this. IE What is a XLR cable?
I'm using a Beringer Mixer, I think it has pre-amp, I know it has phantom power for condenser mics. But I don't want to plug the wrong cable into the wrong input and ZAAAM!
I'm workin' with limited mics here, so this might help me free up a condenser for an overhead. I'd probably still use a dynamic to get the snap from the kick, but this suggestion should help capturing the low end.
Oh yeah, and as far as positioning on the speaker?
BTW, I'm not too bright, and a little slow so if you could really dummy this up it might help me get past my handicaps.

Thanks guys...
jerm
:;):

XLR cable is the standard mic cable that has this three pin connector on the other end (and on the other end there's three little holes naturally) ie. not the mic cable with 6,3 mm (1/4") plug.

The mic made of a speaker is a very simple dynamic mic and the connection is very simple. Another wire from speaker's + to the cables + and another from - to -. If you happen to wire them from - to + it's not a biggie, it's still works- actually yoou just flip the phase that way. No risk of fryung anything.
20

Make sure the phantom’s off though, as you’ve got no transformer in series to block DC.