forget buying specialised applications
20 years ago the hardware drum machine ruled, then slowly the
software drum machine took away its crown, today every software
house seems to have their own drum software - every one claiming that theirs is better than the others - QUIETLY EVER SO QUIETLY this drum software is being ditched, the first readon is the astronomic cost of these apps and the complexity of their use, but most of all YOU DONT NEED THEM -
software like this sells, firstly because the drums sound great - BAD THING - secondly the actual process of creating a KIT - according to the adverts is P easy BUT IN REALITY it is far to complicated for the average no-brainer - WHO DO THEY THINK THEY ARE KIDDING ? obviously the NO BRAINERS who keep buying this stuff -
the average DAW user has no idea of the power they have in their hands, all to eager to have the best they throw $$$$$$$$ at some app that when they open it up find it takes a degree in musicology to get it to run -
the major DAW makers also have their own tame drummers on board, these are all addons CAKEWALK HAS IT so must we, but as they are addons, they dont usually blend in as part of the applications whole -
we have NTrack drums (a free discontinued program) good as it is it does not fit easily within Ns framework -
Flavio has, without 6inch headlines has dragged N from an also ran to the verge of greatness, here its not who HAD IT FIRST that is important but how it intregrates as part of the whole package -
although it technically was available in V5 the ability to handle ACID files correctly is a godsend in V6, as is the ability to expand a sample to any length you want -
to use the sample extend feature you insert a sample into a track, grab the righthand side of it click and drag, it will repeat itself till you stop -
if you used as single shot kick drum sample to would now have a
whole track full of kick samples -
what may not be known is that each sample is an ENTITY TO ITSELF, it has its own properties box (if ACIDISED) you can change the key for an individual sample (to make it sound different) if not ACIDISED transpose can be used to change the key - BUT MORE THAN THAT - you can TIMESTRETCH any sample in the track without affecting any other - NEAT TOOL THIS -
now it is possible to DO IT AS THEY DO IN THE STUDIO, but sans drummer - you can build up drum tracks literraly as easy as ABC, twist, tone, timestretch and add effects as you will -
adding independent effects to a single or set of samples was once a nightmare, now it is a P.O.P - using SNAP TO GRID a single sample can be dragged to a lower track (snap to grid will ensure it will always be in the correct position on the lower track now add an effect to the lower track and the effect will only happen as that sample or samples play - SIMPLE OR WHAT -
samples can be cloned, aligned below the original and the clone(s) can then be keychanged and or timestretched slightly to give some stunning effects - nice filter and phaser effects here without adding VSTs -
the first 20 or more samples in a track can be keychanged starting at a low key setting for sample one then ingreasing the key change till all have been keyshifted, doing this the samples will ramp up as the song starts (can be used at any point in a track to add variety) -
OK SO WHY IS IT A BAD THING TO HAVE GREAT SOUNDING DRUMS,
well it isnt just drums, ANTHING that sound GOOD IN ISOLATION will foul up the final mix - firstly there is the frequency range whereby the drums crash with the Bass guitar, and the other and greater problem is that ALTHOUGH THE MIX SOUNDS GREAT TO YOU - instruments that overpower the mix “TAKE THE LISTENERS EARS AWAY FROM THE REST OF THE TRACK” this is to be AVOIDED at all cost, if you want something to STAND OUT, make sure it has its own hole in the mix where it will stand out but not crash the rest of the track into MUD -
the best drums ever - Rolands electronic TR-707/8/9 - CRAP in
isolation FANTASTIC in the mix -
Dr J
Dr. that is one of the best posts you have ever posted!
Speaking of the Roland 70 etc, you folks ever visit this site?
http://www.vintagesynth.com/index2.html
Well to each his/her own but you can have my JamStix and EZDrummer when you pry them from my cold, dead hard disk.
It’s too easy to get great drums especially for us non-drumming types. I hate to tip over your soap box Doc, but that software sells because it is fast, efficient and sounds great. Let’s take an example here… EZD and JamStix use multi-layered, multi-velocity samples so they sound more realistic as the “drummer” changes attack. So if you want to hand assemble ten or fifteen different snare samples to make your “slap a sample on a grid” approach sound real, that’s fine… but I will be finished a LOOONNGG time before you and mine will sound better. (subjectively of course) Now IF you are doing SLAM - WHACK - SLAM - KA-WHACK for 64 measures, knock yourself out with your TR-808 one-shot samples. You’ll get the dated drum machine sound of the 80’s and early to mid-nineties. If that’s what you want… In my case it AIN’T.
D - NO BRAINER
Quote:
D - NO BRAINER
Well I'm glad you finally admitted you don't have a brain.
Kidding aside - Doc Wabbitt's post was awesome! I tried a string of beats to grab the concept, and a world of possibilities are there, including replacing beats and/or individual drums. the TR-707 was my second drum machine. LinnDrum was my first. Anyone remember the LinnDrum?
The LinnDrum is still good.
The LM1 was/is even cooler.
Something about that early cruddy sampling worked when it went to tape.
And Linn got the shuffle thing right as well. That’s not always true.
Dio, for my money the great thing about JamStix is the modeling of real drummers.
When I do midi drum tracks by hand I end up moving each snare and kick hit by hand, to get it to push and pull properly - especially in fills.
Is there any other drum machine or related product that does what JS does in this respect?
I will say that it has been flakey in Orion, however.
the point of my topic was to show that you dont have to spend MEGABUCKS on what i call opportunist software -
but that aside - i ask you a simple question DO YOU EVER LISTEN TO MUSIC ? - i do maybe 18 hours a day, i am a self confesed RADIO head, i love RADIO and what do i hear, not jamstix or any of the other drum apps i hear drums produced by PROFESSIONALS that put the home producer to shame - i hear drums that are in the right place at the right time - i dont hear any of the things that your drum apps are susposed to make every track a KILLER, in fact the oposite is true -
you dont need a million dollar studio to sound good,(mind you) all you need are a couple of REALLY GOOD QUALITY (royality free) sample CDs - from these you build up your tracks using the samples just as if you had recorded a drummer, (leaving my liking of vintage drum machines apart) there are some very good samplea out there -
OK i have a (small studio) i use have to use different operating methods to you, using all outboard equipment requires a more CLASSIC aproach to recording, also there is the TIME factor, while you can spend a week tweeking a drum beat, you just cannot do that in the commercial world -
back to listening, i can tell if a track was recorded in a “STUDIO” in LOGIG or RENOISE just by the sound and style of what comes out of the speakers, LOGIG and lately RENOISE have thr DANCE MUSIC (electro DnB techno dubstep) all sown up but the majority of tracks on the radio have and never will see Jamstix - should the drummer not perform tha (old) ALESIS drum machine will be the instrument of choice to fill in the missing beats etc, not software -
if you LISTEN to music instead of just hearing it, you will soon discover what makes a good song, SIMPLICITY -
have you ever produced MUSIC for another person ? if the answer is NO then boy are you in for a suprise - flexability is a word you have to learn very quickly - (and a stack of HARDWARE that can be switched on an GO, no time to play with this app or that, no time to play with compressors, if one isnt right you bang in another (all will be preset to obtain a certain sound) -
if you want to be a good recording engineer or producer, you have to accept that hardware is indespensible, (unless you do dance music and you would be chained to LOGIC not here) -
FOLLOWING CLASSIC STUDIO TECHNIQUES is not hard to do, you can do it with N as you can with any other DAW - i am a semi professional photographer and i can compare the two by saying that in photography you can never have to many lenses, and so it was back in the dat with DAWS you could never have enough effects to put in a song - the switch to CLASSIC recording changed all of that, you have to run with what youve got, and you have to make what youve got runs -
build up drum track in the clasic studio mode (ok so we cheat by using samples) will be hard for some at first but you dont need to go mad, remember SIMPLICITY - DONT PUT IN WHAT IS NOT REQUIRED, LESS is definitely MORE - NOBODY CAN TELL A VELOCITY BEAT THAT IS 5% different from another, so dont waste time doing it - DRUMS ARE A BACKGROUND INSTRUMENT, keep them where they belong driving the song forward not booming out and covering up everything else - if you need to adjust a droms volume than thats what AUTOMATION and track envelopes are for, they give you the control not take it away from you as so many addons do -
ONE DAY you will have to leave you CONFORT XONE where your EGO rules and enter the real world, it is here you will soon discover that the SQUARE WHEEL dont work, so you have to use the bog standard round one like everybody else -
Dr J
Quote: (TomS @ Jul. 13 2008, 2:35 PM)
The LinnDrum is still good. The LM1 was/is even cooler. Something about that early cruddy sampling worked when it went to tape. And Linn got the shuffle thing right as well. That's not always true.
Dio, for my money the great thing about JamStix is the modeling of real drummers. When I do midi drum tracks by hand I end up moving each snare and kick hit by hand, to get it to push and pull properly - especially in fills. Is there any other drum machine or related product that does what JS does in this respect?
I will say that it has been flakey in Orion, however.
Any MIDI editor worthy of the name will have "swing quantize" Tom. If you have a MIDI drum track that's too "stiff", you can quantize the notes allowing the program to "fudge" them around the beat by a certain strength and amount set by you but randomly. Yeesh... does that make sense?
D
I came out of the professional studio world into home recording. S lot of what you say makes sense to me now that I would have blown off years ago.
I will take your challenge and try a sample layed drum track. When is it due professor Wabbitt?
It will be a good learning and ver 6 practice session if nothing else.
Hey, Dio, yes, of course, but…most other swing thingies just don’t get it quite right. I once read an interview with Linn where he talked about this, and AFAICT he is exactly correct. I know, e.g., that I don’t like the swing that is set up in Orion, or the humanize thing they have either, precisely b/c it is random (Orion’s the proggie I use most, after n-Track). SO I end up going through things note by note and pushing here, pulling there…
Quote:
if you LISTEN to music instead of just hearing it, you will soon discover what makes a good song, SIMPLICITY -
On the way home tonight, I was listening to a Fleetwood Mac "Best Of" CD, and was paying particular attention to the drums - as Mr. Fleetwood is reported to be a rock steady drummer. I was completely amazed at how simple his grooves were.... Rock Drumming 101 in stereo.... - w/ just a tintsy bit of variation between things to let you know it wasn't a click track. I was driving down the road thinking, "Maybe I've been trying too hard to get a powerful sound...."
Then I listened to that Nine Lashes song again, and changed my mind. I think most modern alternative/ rock music features the drums - as 80s rock featured the guitar..... just my off the cuff observation.
Could ya'll provide a few examples of songs using the Roland kit.....before I make a judgement on what sounds good or not?
All the best,
JWilson
Quote: (TomS @ Jul. 13 2008, 8:00 PM)
Hey, Dio, yes, of course, but...most other swing thingies just don't get it quite right. I once read an interview with Linn where he talked about this, and AFAICT he is exactly correct. I know, e.g., that I don't like the swing that is set up in Orion, or the humanize thing they have either, precisely b/c it is random (Orion's the proggie I use most, after n-Track). SO I end up going through things note by note and pushing here, pulling there...
You have to know what you want going in right? Do you want your "drummer" ahead of the beat or exactly in the pocket or kinda loafing along? Whichever you want determines what kind of quantize you want and you may want it applied differently at different points of the song. You may want the drums pushing just slightly during choruses and solo breaks but laid back during the verse.
MIDI drums don't have to sound "MIDI".
D
I thought you did the quantizing when you play along, behind, on top of it, pushing it.
Just my perspective of using a timed drummer, you can spend weeks working on drums that are still mechanical.
It is what it is.
Meh… never mind… 
Had a long diatribe typed up… thought better of it… off to bed.
Have a GOOD day gents…
D
Never delete a Dio post please! 
Quote: (Yaz @ Jul. 13 2008, 10:11 PM)
I thought you did the quantizing when you play along, behind, on top of it, pushing it.
Just my perspective of using a timed drummer, you can spend weeks working on drums that are still mechanical.
It is what it is.
Hi Yaz,
You posted whilst I wuzza diatribin' ... sorry. The above was not directed at anybody. Certainly not THE YAZMEISTER!
A good drummer will push or pull just like Tom referred to... where's Phoo when you need him?
I gotta go to bed... stupid... frickem... frackem... Show up at eight... day job... Shoulda gone into bankin' or sumthin'...
D
You should go to work for Yaz with me - I got the rest of the month off!
gotta agree with DOC on one level -
drums don’t have to be perfect (velocities +/- 2%) and all that.
It’s the mix. In a good mix (my opinion) it’s like the drums
are there if I want to focus on them, and when I do, I go - WOW,
that’s some great drumming.
In a LIVE venue though, I think drums are a whole 'nother
animal. They are the show. And I don’t believe you can program
for LIVE. I mean major concerts. Plus the kind of drumming I like
doesn’t lend itself to machine programming. Billy Cobham comes
to mind. I remember seeing him in '74 with Jeff Beck and some
bass player who was out of this world. Just the three at
Constitution Hall in DC. No programming or machine could ever
do what Cobham can do live.
D, love the signature above your avatar - seriously man YOU ROCK - far better than my ONE TRACK MIND -
Dr J
Quote:
where's Phoo when you need him?
Unfortunately, at (real) work...looking up pictures of Terry Bozzio....
http://www.terrybozzio.com/