teej
I live in Chicago and your assessment is correct.
In Chicago, I grew up in a blue collar low income neighborhood and we were primarily republican.
My parents were fresh new into this country working in factories in the 70’s and finally owning their businesses. Democrats have made it increasingly hard for my folks to keep their revenue without forcing 45% of their income to some social programs they did not want to endorse.
I grew up seeing inner city folks using social welfare to get cash from currency exchanges for more crack. Seems inherently wrong doesnt it?
In the other part of my life…as a first generation american…I lived with middle income people which is Chicago today now …majority are pretty white/democratic/liberal but a diverse personality…upbringing…etc which added something to my knowledge about social issues as well economic issues.
I can safely say that one cannot exist without the other … peacefully anyways. Im a little concerned about the balance being one sided tho
I understand both sides of the spectrum…and its about priorities. If you have money to roll around in…you have the luxury to address social issues first…if you have income that fluctuates…like in rural and other working class areas…economy…way of life (morals) become more important.
On another note, Clinton sold out american jobs overseas with NAFTA…that was the beginning…it wasnt Bush’s total fault for our economic woes but he certainly didnt help matters with this war in Iraq. I do wish the republicans quit saying we’re doing this for Iraq and protecting ourselves. The last time our borders were threatened was the Spanish War. I believe if one going to do something for whatever reasons…hiding behind false speeches and pretention makes you look more scrupulous.
| Quote (pete @ Nov. 04 2004,10:26) |
| Argh. The voice of reason, Chip. What are you thinking? How can we maintain the essential levels of hatred and fear with you spewing this kind of tripe? |
Tripe? Would you prefer chitterlings?
Bubba
What the heck is a chitterling? 
You’re not likely to like the answer.
Let’s put it this way, they often times come in a bucket.
Guy brought some of that stuff to work once. Nastiest CRAP I ever smelled in my life!! I was going…"Dude!??..You’re gonna eat that!!!"
Yuck!!
TG
| Quote (CosmicCharlie @ Nov. 03 2004,19:09) |
| Its no surprise that the losing party begns the call for "unity" and"coming together"-what do they want to compromise on? Abortion, Gay marriage, 2nd amendment??? |
PastorB - that's one of the most cynical things I've ever heard you say. How will we ever heal when you feel this way?
I'll be cynical for a moment. You guys are in power now - do what you want. Overturn Roe vs. Wade - do it! Pass a gay marriage constitutional admentment - please do it! Pass a gun law that allows everyone to have an AK-47 as mandatory equipment in their house to protect against terrorists - DO IT!!!
BUT PLEASE STOP BLAMING THE DEMOCRATS BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T BEEN IN POWER FOR 4 YEARS OR LONGER. AND STOP WHINING.
Mike- I read now, and it does look a bit cynical.I am a "glass half full" guy, especially in politics. It does help that no matter what happens, I believe that God has a plan.
The comments were intended to point out that the issues that seemed to be of real value, read:moral issues to voters. (not the time to discuss which are moral or not, it depends on the voter)are ones that will be difficult to come to agreement on. Guns, abortion, gay marriage etc...
The voters seem, by all media accounts, to have been thinking of these as much or more than the war, terror etc.
For compromise, which is the essence of politics, to happen: BOTH sides have to move. It seemed that the party line after the election became final was..."Bush must move towards us" The dems, if they value unity as much as they claim, must also move towards the right.
If any lesson was learned from the election, the congressional races, and the popular vote, is that the country, as shown by their vote, is more to the right than the platform put forth by the Dem's through J.Kerry.
If either party wants "goodwill" to reign through legislation, BOTH have to move. I just don't see where, on some of these hot button issues, either party moving significantly at this time.
sooooo. the real issue has been discussed, the rural v. urban divide. Those in the middle swing right, as shown by their vote.
For some reason, which i do not know, Kerry failed to connect in those areas.
Above Observations put forth claim no absolutre understanding of the American voter...just some stuff to talk about!
PB
PS I agree that post election the blame game needs to stop. its put up or shut up time for Bush and congress. Plus an AK is not a fun gun, too expensive to practice with.!
PastorBrian
How does the left move right and right move left?
Sorry…I read your posts and theyre too many cliches to make sense to me.
| Quote (aspiringWanderer @ Nov. 04 2004,18:03) |
| PastorBrian How does the left move right and right move left? Sorry..I read your posts and theyre too many cliches to make sense to me. |
Too many cliches?
I'll try and speak slower.:)
The post was in response to Mike telling me I was cynical.
Is the nation divided....yes
Is it a rural vs. urban divide ...yes
Is it as divided as the left would portray...no
did the democrats do enough to close this gap...no...3.4 million voters are still more to the right than they thought.
I honestly am not sure what issues can be compromised on. Good thing we have representative government.If i was in there I might have to study more. I do think these "moral issues" are ones that will continue to divide us.
“Too many cliches?
I’ll try and speak slower.:)”
------
I prefer you TRY get to the point sooner 
“The post was in response to Mike telling me I was cynical.
Is the nation divided…yes
Is it a rural vs. urban divide …yes
Is it as divided as the left would portray…no
did the democrats do enough to close this gap…no…3.4 million voters are still more to the right than they thought.”
------
Being cynical isn’t your only real problem…but we’ll leave that one alone for now.
Just because people voted for Bush doesnt necessarily make them “right winged”. I voted for Bush because the Democrats are in such sorried state and I didn’t feel Kerry was up to the job. Bush served as president for 4 years so I feel comfortable knowing what direction he is at as probably most American at this uncertain time.
Don’t delude yourself into believing that just because some of us voted for Bush that we are all conservative republicans as you are claiming that they underestimated people were more left than they thought.
“I honestly am not sure what issues can be compromised on. Good thing we have representative government.If i was in there I might have to study more. I do think these “moral issues” are ones that will continue to divide us.”
------
Moral issues are pretty subjective depending on the person’s own definition of them.
For example, some idiots believe that being pro-choice means they want to kill children…as idiotic as a leftist moron who thinks all republicans are ignorant rednecks.
My point us…dont assume anything based on what you read or what you prefer to believe. It’s a big world and not everything is black and white as you seem to suggest.
Was that slow enough for you?
Teej,
Thanks for the illustrations. I was unaware of the whole rural/urban split in party support.
BTW- thank you for returning to enlighten us once again, and for observing the fact that things have returned to a more civilized manner in here.
Pastor Brian, I pitty your congregation. I agree that God does have a plan for us as you have stated.
<!–QuoteBegin>
| Quote |
| It does help that no matter what happens, I believe that God has a plan. |
But unlike you I know better than to try and figure it all out myself–or make any religous sence of it all. This little speck of time we exsist in, is no more significant than any other in history. Mixing politics and religous veiws is a fools passtime.
My Bible teaches Power and Authority is given from above.
Kerry may not be President but he still has as much of a chance to make a difference in this nation as Bush, maybe more, if the good Lord will’s it. You don’t have to be president to help others or make social reforms, --look at Hillary!
The idea that a person need be elected in order to have power is not in my Bible. And there’s no way of telling who God is going to bestow His authority/power to. Not by “accessing the canidates moral values” --judge not.
Or by looking at his track record. If you were a true follower if Christ (as your name suggest) you would know that your vote is insignificant. The power is not yours or mine to give, Bush. Only God can do that, and I pray he does (for our countries sake), but if it’s not His will, again, He won’t.–end rant.
As far as the whole left and right thing. I think we need both to tie our shoes.
Wanderer, some good insertions by you. IMHO.
“Chitterlings” sound like the main course on a Surrivor episode!
some people will do anything for money…tee hee.
I apologize to the users in here for blowing off my top. I can respect people’s beliefs because they have their own upbringing and experiences but I resent anyone making blanket generalizations as a declaration of truth whether its towards me or anyone else.
FWIW…One of the reasons Im considered a moderate is because I have different views on subjects that against/for left/right and I will not pledge my allegiance to any group or cult because I have personal reasons for them.
When voting comes…I have to use my better judgements on what are considered higher priorities.
Bush is somewhat predictable…Im pretty confident he’s not going to turn our country to some backward Jim Crows laws (sarcasm) or overturn abortion overnight etc…and gay marriage is pretty irrelevant who the president is…so therefore…what is the immediate threat? pick someone a little predictable or some shaky unknown that sends red flags all over at a critical uncertain time.
I voted for Bush but I am still pro choice…I support the separation of church and state…I do however wish to end affirmative action and stop persecuting whites for their ancestors misdeeds…I support civil unions for gays and against gay marriage because I respect religous rights and their freedom to practice and Im an aethiest and and most of all protect freedom of speech even if I dont like what they have to stay.
Gee am I left or right? I dont label myself either. I want to treat people the way I want to be treated…I do NOT liked to be generalized by someone to make their own point seem strong.
Sorry for rambling.
Jeremy- I said nothing of the sort. Go back and reread my post.
believing in the sovreignty of God doesn’t preclude me from voting. I did, not out of a religious conviction, but a sense of civil responsibility.
You seem to think that I have some sort of lack of faith when it comes to the electoral system and those in power. I don’t at all.
Jeremy, you and I agree. Your last statement is that God gives the power to those whom he chooses. I absolutely agree.
I was merely pointing out that the issues that divide the nation are ones of deep conviction on both sides.Moving to the center, in my opinion, will be difficult.
Kerry and others in congress will do whatever they can to make America better, I really believe that! They also have a sense of civil responsibility. The country, at this time, agreed with the agenda set forth by President Bush. They, the voters, looked at the “moral” issues and decided accordingly.
Do I have faith in the system, yes, but I have a deeper faith in God’s decree that includes those whom he puts in positions of power, in his will.
Jeremy, I will respectfully ignore your comment that my congregation is to be pitied, I’m sure you meant that in fun.
wanderer, If I blanketly ascribed you or an issue to broadly and generally, please let me know how I did so, so that I may explain further or apologize, which ever is appropriate. I never intended a blanket stetement of truth, just some observations. My apologies also for being obtuse.
PB
PastorBrian
"If any lesson was learned from the election, the congressional races, and the popular vote, is that the country, as shown by their vote, is more to the right than the platform put forth by the Dem’s through J.Kerry."
—
Im a swing voter…I didnt vote for Bush because I became more right. I chose Bush b/c I believed he was better equipped to be a leader than some questional democrat who was all talk.
I get liberal extremists who call me a redneck which is funny because Im an aethiest asian and Im a hedonist by neo-conservative just because I have limits as far as how much our civil rights should be taken away “for the goodwill of the people under god”. I think for myself…I’d appreciate you not to make generalizations.
I apologize for being crass but this sort of thing has become a pet peeve of mine.
The hopefuls in the Democrat camp really believed victory in the US election was within their grasp. How did they get it so wrong? They failed to appreciate, says Simon Schama, that their country is now in fact two nations that loathe and fear each other - Godly and Worldly America....
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1343956,00.html
In the wee small hours of November 3 2004, a new country appeared on the map of the modern world: the DSA, the Divided States of America. Oh yes, I know, the obligatory pieties about "healing" have begun; not least from the lips of the noble Loser. This is music to the ears of the Victor of course, who wants nothing better than for us all to Come Together, a position otherwise known as unconditional surrender. Please, fellow curmudgeons and last ditchers, can someone on the losing side just for once not roll over and fall into a warm bath of patriotic platitudes at such moments, but toot the flute of battle instead; yell and holler and snarl just a wee bit? I don't want to heal the wound, I want to scratch the damned thing until it hurts and bleeds - and then maybe we'll have what it takes to get up from the mat. Do we think the far-right Republican candidate Barry Goldwater, in the ashy dawn of his annihilation in 1964, wanted to share? Don't think so. He wanted to win; sometime. And now, by God, he has.
The rest of the article is at the above link. Makes interesting reading.
John.
Let's forget this whole philisophical/ontological/religious discussion. The important thing here is how is it so many people don't know what chitterlings (or chitlins if you prefer) are! That's where the divide is. Folks who know what chitterlings are and those who don't.
Blue = don't/horrified
Red = do/drooling
All kidding aside, I think you have nailed an indicator here.
So, should I call Zogby or not? They have missed the boat it seems.
But to respond to the article above of the America of the Godly and of the Worldly, I think that is true to a point so long as it is not read into too far. Worldly does not mean greedy immoral people and Godly does not mean folks living a life under a vow of poverty passing out bread in Calcutta. I think it is a reference to where a person’s perception of the world comes from and not how they necessarily live.
Wanderer,
i think you are the mainstream voter that sometimes gets overlooked by both parties.
The democrats never had a chance with me, I will never see things their way, no problem.
the repubs never needed to convince me of anything, no problem.
Its folks that have the same issues on their heart as you that make the difference in any election.You see some of the left platform as your own and some of the right as your own. It seems that you were the target for ads, speeches and the sort.But ultimately, according to your post, you made a choice based on a belief that Bush would be a better leader. the voters went to the polls, looked at whet they wanted and voted accordingly. God Bless America!
i apologize for unintentionally putting you in a box or category, it was never my goal to label anyone as anything. I appreciate your views and I feel bad that I offended.
let the civility resume!