…
The issue at large here really is the definition of a theory which is very different in vulgar use versus scientific use. In science, for something to be a theory it is not conjecture. In vulgar use a theory often means a conjecture. Gravity is a theory and we can feel it. Atoms are a theory and we can see them. In science for something to be a theory, it is treated as a fact. Had they re-worded the sticker to something else it probably would have squeezed by. They lost on a technicality.
Read this for a decent-ish explaniation of what I mean. Too bad I can’t find a less slanted article…
Here is what you need to glean from it:
<!–QuoteBegin>
| Quote |
| There are some readers who are not anti-evolutionist but still claim that evolution is “only” a theory which can’t be proven. This group needs to distinguish between the fact that evolution occurs and the theory of the mechanism of evolution. |
I bet if they reworded the sticker to address the latter it would pass muster. However, it is a science class and they teach what science knows based on peer review etc. It is a misunderstanding of science to do otherwise and then it becomes something other than science.
No - it was the right decision. See Remove Evolution Disclaimers.
<!–QuoteBegin>
| Quote |
| The Cobb County School District approved the evolution disclaimer in 2002, in response to criticism that the new science textbooks chosen by the administration did not include information about creationism or “intelligent design.” District Court Judge Clarence Cooper wrote in today’s decision that, "the sticker sends a message to those who oppose evolution for religious reasons that they are favored members of the political community, while the sticker sends a message to those who believe in evolution that they are political outsiders." |
They call doing something like this a “wedge”. The goal of the people who got these stickers in the text books is that they want “Intelligent Design” to be taught in the schools. There is no scientific basis for ID & therefore, it cannot be taught as legtimate science. So first you drive a wedge in by getting the stickers and next you get ID put into the textbooks.
The judges in Georgia saw this the correct way.
…
Bubba’s right - alot of people mis-use the word “theory” when they should say “hypothesis”. And because this usage is common, the religious right is able to belittle the word “theory” when it comes to evolution.
The most disturbing thing I see about this is the fact that a Federal Judge was involved. Why didn’t the parents of the kids at this school take action and reach a compromise on the issue? Too busy to “interfere” with their kids schooling? Just don’t care?
Federal Judges cannot dictate being a good parent or enforce personal responsibilty.
TG
Why didn't the parents of the kids at this school take action and reach a compromise on the issue?
They did - they hired a lawyer & fought the battle in the courts!
They did - they hired a lawyer & fought the battle in the courts!
| Quote (Mr Soul @ Jan. 13 2005,18:40) |
| Why didn't the parents of the kids at this school take action and reach a compromise on the issue? |
They did - they hired a lawyer & fought the battle in the courts!
Yes. Lets take EVERY issue to the courts instead of acting like reasonable, responsible ADULTS. Lets make the lawyers richer so they can gain even more power so THEY can rule our lives for us.
Makes sense to me....
TG
EDIT** Read a little closer what I wrote. The key word is compromise. There was no compromise. A Federal judge shoved HIS ruling down their throats. The side with the most money for the lawyers wins.
A crying shame is,
A bus load of lawyers going off a cliff…
With an empty seat!
Not this crap again.
I remember this was the topic after the ntrack/audiominds “cisma” isnt? Are you refering to this John?
The Cobb County School District approved the evolution disclaimer in 2002, in response to criticism that the new science textbooks chosen by the administration did not include information about creationism or "intelligent design." District Court Judge Clarence Cooper wrote in today’s decision that, "the sticker sends a message to those who oppose evolution for religious reasons that they are favored members of the political community, while the sticker sends a message to those who believe in evolution that they are political outsiders."
Cooper ordered the school district to remove all stickers immediately.
Rabbi Scott Saulson, applauded today’s decision and warned that introducing issues of faith into the science curriculum is inappropriate.
"People who wish faith to compete with science are asking faith to be judged by the same standards as theory, which is a standard of reasonable proof," Saulson said. "Faith is unique in that it is not predicated upon proof. To continue to mask religious belief as science will sooner or later besmirch both faith and religion."
The Judge and Rabbi got it right. Can you imagine every religion being allowed to introduce faith-based history as fact in scientific teaching? I realize the ultra-conservative right is now in power, but do you really want them to decide what you and your children should think or believe?
Hmmmm.... maybe you do...
Mike
Cooper ordered the school district to remove all stickers immediately.
Rabbi Scott Saulson, applauded today’s decision and warned that introducing issues of faith into the science curriculum is inappropriate.
"People who wish faith to compete with science are asking faith to be judged by the same standards as theory, which is a standard of reasonable proof," Saulson said. "Faith is unique in that it is not predicated upon proof. To continue to mask religious belief as science will sooner or later besmirch both faith and religion."
The Judge and Rabbi got it right. Can you imagine every religion being allowed to introduce faith-based history as fact in scientific teaching? I realize the ultra-conservative right is now in power, but do you really want them to decide what you and your children should think or believe?
Hmmmm.... maybe you do...
Mike
| Quote (John @ Jan. 14 2005,07:41) |
Not this crap again. |
Oh yeah. ALWAYS.
TG
| Quote (marce @ Jan. 14 2005,09:10) |
| I remember this was the topic after the ntrack/audiominds "cisma" isnt? Are you refering to this John? |
Yes.
At one time, this was a *very* active board with many, many, very experienced people. We did not have an "anything goes" forum, nor did we need one. The occasional off topic message thread was mixed in with all the music related threads, and was mostly harmless. Life was pretty darn good. The community here was good.
Then... Someone brought up the whole "creationism vs. evolution" debate.
(cue ominous music)
Things got ugly.
Really. Damm. Ugly.
Half the members left here and created the Audiominds.com website as a new forum. They seem to be extremely paranoid over there -- you can't even *read* the forum without registering, they've got about 4-5 moderators, and several "private" forums that you have to ask to gain access to. More power to them if that's what they want, but it seems a little excessive to me...
In an attempt to fix the damage, the "Anything Goes" forum was created, which is mostly nothing more than a soapbox for a few people to rant about stuff. I say "rant" because it is very rare that arguments over the Internet lead to anything productive. Mostly it's nothing more than one side stating their case, the other side retorts with their argument, and the whole process repeats until one side just gets tired of the redundancy. This is sort of "victory by attrition" does nothing to change anyone's mind about anything, except maybe to consider that arguing over politics or religion on a music forum is silly, tiresome, and waste of time.
Let's argue about Les Pauls vs. Stratocastors or something...
I think i have learned, a little at least, from this experience. I remember me discussing -not stupid- but not necessary thing with friends here.
In real life i can respect, inclusive enjoy the company of people that thinks light years from me. Im trying to do the same here.
Dont do that:
| Quote (John @ Jan. 14 2005,11:04) | ||
Yes. At one time, this was a *very* active board with many, many, very experienced people. We did not have an "anything goes" forum, nor did we need one. The occasional off topic message thread was mixed in with all the music related threads, and was mostly harmless. Life was pretty darn good. The community here was good. Then... Someone brought up the whole "creationism vs. evolution" debate. (cue ominous music) Things got ugly. Really. Damm. Ugly. Half the members left here and created the Audiominds.com website as a new forum. They seem to be extremely paranoid over there -- you can't even *read* the forum without registering, they've got about 4-5 moderators, and several "private" forums that you have to ask to gain access to. More power to them if that's what they want, but it seems a little excessive to me... In an attempt to fix the damage, the "Anything Goes" forum was created, which is mostly nothing more than a soapbox for a few people to rant about stuff. I say "rant" because it is very rare that arguments over the Internet lead to anything productive. Mostly it's nothing more than one side stating their case, the other side retorts with their argument, and the whole process repeats until one side just gets tired of the redundancy. This is sort of "victory by attrition" does nothing to change anyone's mind about anything, except maybe to consider that arguing over politics or religion on a music forum is silly, tiresome, and waste of time. Let's argue about Les Pauls vs. Stratocastors or something... |
I agree with you 100% John.
However, I dig BOTH Strats and Pauls.
They each excel at certain things. Gotta have 'em both.TG
I dunno, this thread is pretty tame really. I am actually pleased that it hasn’t turned into a pissing match. A few folks chimed in and everyone moved on. Dare I say I see some progress?
actually I could take issue with the Strats and Pauls thing. Teles kick Strats to the kerb. So I think it should be an argument about Teles and Pauls.
| Quote (kymarcus @ Jan. 14 2005,15:16) |
| actually I could take issue with the Strats and Pauls thing. Teles kick Strats to the kerb. So I think it should be an argument about Teles and Pauls. |
Telecastor necks are too tiny for my long, skinny fingers. Gotta be an LP for me!