Flavio is GREAT!

I just want to say that Flavio is great.
I had a problem with the last couple of beta builds installing correctly under Windows 2K.
I sent him an email, and 24 hours later it is fixed.

Quote (random_id @ April 01 2006,15:22)
I just want to say that Flavio is great.
I had a problem with the last couple of beta builds installing correctly under Windows 2K.
I sent him an email, and 24 hours later it is fixed.

Nice.

I've been waiting for nearly 4 days for a reply from him regarding why n-Track (ANY version) won't run for more than 5 mintues before blowing up.

Flavio would be great if the problem didn’t occur in the first place. He’s just a regular joe for responding to most emails.

It’s a bit tiring to hear the constant “well, no software always works on any computers, it’s the computers fault!”. Funny how many other softwares, audio and not, rarely experience such computer specific issues that completely stop the use of their software.

Ok, steam is gone, thanks :p

x-track, get over it.

You expect a perfect program and name countless companies who have produced such software… here’s a little hint for you… Flavio did all this himself (with the exception of some freelance help from others that occured recently).

He’s NOT some major name company that has a group of people problem solving and doing programming and customer service. The program cost $75. You want the rock solid performance of other stuff. GO GET IT!!! and pay at least twice as much, and be prepared to fix their problems too, cause nothing is perfect.

N-track offers a great value for the money. Yes, there are glitches sometimes, most of which can be resolved simply by resetting the default preferences. Others are more tricky, but there are millions of combinations between hardware, plugins, and drivers.

so quit being a dick about it and grow up.

Thank you for the positive response. That’s what makes this forum so great ???

Do we need a list of all the other softwares maintained by a single person that are able to perform consistantly and stabley at a lower price (let’s say free) than n-track? There are many, and most of them work on more than just windows and have a significantly larger userbase than n-track.

I am a HAPPY n-track 3.3 user, but I do not feel the need to rationalize my purchase constantly in the face of many glaring problems (with newer versions). I do feel the need on the other hand to vent my frustration with the “blame the user” mentality on the forum, a forum for software which seems to be unusually touchy about what machine it is running on.

I dont think the right mindset to help push the improvement of n-track is “Let’s figure out how to make my computer with with n-track”. If you care about the program, the correct mindset is "Let’s figure out how to make n-track work on these computers.

I am trying to be reasonable and polite. :D

p.s. I dont think n-track is a one person operation anymore. There have been job listings here, and many of the included plugins are 3rd party plugins in the new version.

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p.s. I dont think n-track is a one person operation anymore. There have been job listings here, and many of the included plugins are 3rd party plugins in the new version.

Judging by the plugs used though, I think Flav might have a contra deal with the guy how made that plug - ie, “hey your plugs are free, how about I get them out there in my recording program?” - or maybe not, that might just be me.

Willy.
Quote (Willy @ April 01 2006,23:49)
Judging by the plugs used though, I think Flav might have a contra deal with the guy how made that plug - ie, "hey your plugs are free, how about I get them out there in my recording program?" - or maybe not, that might just be me.

Willy.

That drum step sequencer is a real nice addition. Wonder if we will see more goodies up the road?? Maybe they will gut it and turn it into a mini FL studio or am I smoking too much herb?

Whether one guy made it, ten guys made it or a big-wig company makes it there should be no excuse for lack of stability.

No matter your computer configuration, the basics should work.

I can install n-Track but no matter what configuration I use it crashes.

ASIO: Crash.
WDM: Crash.
MME: Crash.
USB Soundcard: Crash.
PCI Soundcard: Crash.
New drivers, old drivers; with plugins, without plugins; buffers low, buffers high; PC, laptop…

… think best picture 2006.

I mean, I even did a fresh install of Windows with nothing installed but n-Track and it still blew up!

The sheer frustration I have been going through for the past few weeks is angering. I don’t give a rats a.s.s if I pay $1000 for a program or $40 for a program, it should at least WORK regardless of what setup I have. I would rather deal with stupid bugs along the lines of something like: “the VU meters show up in black and white if i send a reverb effect to AUX 1 on the master channel” than having the app blow up two minutes after I start up the program.

If the forums are any indication, then stability seems to be the major problem with this program. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Stop adding new features and work on nothing but the stability.

This afternoon I downloaded the Demo of Adobe Audition and lo and behold, I managed to record tracks. I can’t save them or do anything major with them because it’s a demo but the simple fact that after spending two weeks trying to get n-Track to RUN I was completely happy that I could record for three straight hours without the app melting down like a Russian reactor.

guitars69 said: "You want the rock solid performance of other stuff. GO GET IT!!!"

Well lemme tell you, if I don’t hear anything from Flavio come the 7 day anniversary of my support email, then I will happily shell out the $300 for Audition and wipe my hands of n-Track.

A shame becuase I like supporting the underdog. But what can you do? I need to record music, not fight with my multitrack program of choice.

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I can install n-Track but no matter what configuration I use it crashes.

ASIO: Crash.
WDM: Crash.
MME: Crash.
USB Soundcard: Crash.
PCI Soundcard: Crash.
New drivers, old drivers; with plugins, without plugins; buffers low, buffers high; PC, laptop…

… think best picture 2006.

I mean, I even did a fresh install of Windows with nothing installed but n-Track and it still blew up!


How come n-Track works - rock solid BTW - on so many other DAW’s out there, including mine?!?

I do have issues, that’s right, but after about a week or so exploring out the Cubase LE that came bundled with my soundcard, I still prefer n-Track.

I run a ASUS-based 3 GHz P-IV system with SATA disks, 2 Gig of RAM, EMU 1820 soundcard, Win XP Pro and ASIO drivers for both cu and n. Here are my my findings so far:

ASIO performance: both cu & n solid as a rock. Both waver and get the hiccups if I use too many ressources (opening the EMU mixer during playback, adjusting a plugin during playback, probably a buffer setting issue)

Mixdown: n wins, big time. Much, much easier to do in this environment. cu is an awkward and complicated (albeit logic) beast when it comes down to such a simple task. For instance, you need to have four windows open at the same time if you want to readjust something plugged in on an aux channel.

Recording: Almost equal - same performance when recording multiple tracks, but n is a lot easier to set up and get running in no time. cu has some peculiar defaults - for instance, it puts any selected track into record ready mode, making it necessary to turn it off if it is not the reason you selected that track.

Rendering: n has an edge here - there sure is a lot of possible settings to choose from. cu comes out about average (actually reminds me of n version 2.x - how many out there still remember that one?)

User interface: I like the style of n, although cu tries to underplay a bit in order to have a more ‘serious’, cool, blue-gray look. One thing I miss in n is the ability to let the mixer size and style follow the project - some kind of “save mixer style and size with the project”-feature would be nice. However, I’m off-topic…

Shortcuts: n wins again. Much more intuitive and easy to use. Probably it is just my five to seven years with n and two weeks with cu that has be biased here.

VSTi rendering: n has problems with a lot of different VST instruments, cu ‘just’ renders/plays them… I know a lot of plugin instruments - even professional, expensive ones - have nonstandard implementations of the VST interface according to the standard, but still there are problems with n that aren’t there when trying out excactly the same thing in cu. cu just seems more ‘tolerant’ towards plugin instruments speaking a peculiar VST dialect than n in my experience. Some work still needs to be done on n in that respect. At least I know that this will eventually be attended to by Flavio et al., probably at no extra cost whatsoever. the LE version of cu isn’t supported/updated at all, and only standard questions are answered by the staff at Steinberg, i.e. if you have a reproducible problem, go buy the full version (and hope for the best regarding the problem being solved there!) - some gloomy prospect, if you ask me.

It does boil down to the old question about price vs. quality - I think we get a very high value for money with n, and certainly more value for money than some of us out here deserve…

Long live n-Track! (I’ll keep that Cubase LE just for good measure(!))

regards, Nils

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(actually reminds me of n version 2.x - how many out there still remember that one?)

Actually, I prefered the look of 2.x to 3.

sticknick-
I have no idea why n-track doesn’t work with you. I’ve installed the demo and full versions on a multitude of computers and very rarely had to adjust ANYTHING to get it up and running. I’ve of course tweaked it for my particular setup and card on my permanent installation, but all the others were just install and go.

The new beta’s have been somewhat flaky sometimes, but they’re BETA.

Perhaps telling us your computer setup’s might reveal a similarity you haven’t noticed.

x-track,
I’ve used multi-thousand dollar programs that have crashed much more often than n-track ever did for me.
You’re right, post version 3 stuff has been much flakier than before, but I still haven’t had much trouble with it. and usually, resetting to the default settings fixes it immediately.

I have to agree with Nils K. I have tried many demos and other software that will work for some but not all (I have exposed my pc to hundreds of programs, builds, spyware, codes, scripts, patches, trojans, updates and unfortunatly a few viruses) . It it amazing to see just how many programs are not compatable with different set ups just because of the something as simple as a sound or video card. It is true there will always be stability issues for some but not all. Some will be fast to say that program X is more stable. This may be true for some…but not for all. There is no program that I am aware of that works perfectly for all. Just do some research and you will find that there is always a few that can not get the program to work the way it should. When you factor in how Ntrack has consistantly evolved and the support Flavio does give, I will have to agree with the original post, which some used to express their personnal heart ache and issues. If You want real issues take a peep at UBI soft’s forum for Lockdown where over 85% of the post are negative because the game is faulty on all systems (not just a few), yet no patch nor has UBIsoft addressed the issues. This is just one example of many were a large company screwed over its customers. What it all boils down to is that no software is made specifically for one system, so some will have problems. The good news is we all have a choice to choose what best works for us. I am sticking with Ntrack.

Quote (guitars69 @ April 02 2006,12:17)
sticknick-
I have no idea why n-track doesn’t work with you. I’ve installed the demo and full versions on a multitude of computers and very rarely had to adjust ANYTHING to get it up and running. I’ve of course tweaked it for my particular setup and card on my permanent installation, but all the others were just install and go.

The new beta’s have been somewhat flaky sometimes, but they’re BETA.

Perhaps telling us your computer setup’s might reveal a similarity you haven’t noticed.

I have no idea either and it’s frustrating.

I’ve tried the 3.x, 4.0.x, and 4.1.x versions and it’s the same on all. 4.2 won’t even get me past the spash screen, but it’s a beta so I figured I give that up and stay with the “stable” versions.

Here are the system specs:

PC:
Asus P4S800D
Pentium 4 2.4
1024MB DDR400 (2x512)
200GB Maxtor Diamond @ 7200rpm
Leadtek GeForce 6600GT 128MB
LG DVD-RW
Sound 1: SoundMAX Digital (onboard)
Sound 2: m-audio Fast Track USB
Windows XP Pro with sp2

Laptop:
Acer Aspire 3160
Celeron M 1.5
512MB DDR400
60GB hdd @ 5400rpm
Intel 915GM/GMS, 910ML, 910GML Express graphics.
Sound 1: Realtek AC’97
Sound 2: m-audio Fast Track USB.
Windows XP Pro with sp2

The only similarity I can see is the m-audio unit but I’ve ruled that put by completely uninstalling it and trying each systems audio. I have even formatted and reinstalled Windows having nothing installed but n-Track with the sytem sound cards and it still won’t do it.

I have thrown my hands in the air. Everything else works 100%.

Here is some quotes off a cakewalk forum about the Sound Max chipset, thought this may interest you. Leads me to think if you manually diable this audio device then try installing nTrack it may work.

- We have had to answer so many questions regarding this card, and in the process defend Music Creator [not our job] that I thought it was time to get some of this research in one place.

If you are an owner of a SoundMAX Digital Audio soundcard you are probably having problems. There are a lot of them out there. We do not have many solutions to your problems, but here is information that may help you understand the situation.

MIDI
Your SoundMax, for all intents and purposes, is audio only and NOT able to do MIDI without some changes.
As a matter of fact after a bit of research I find that in most cases even SoundMax agrees. “MIDI music playback” only.

http://forms.analog.com/Form_Pa…iojacks
33 Why doesn’t my MIDI port work?
Musicians sometimes use the MIDI port connector on some computers to connect to an external musical instrument. SoundMAX does not support the MIDI port of computers.
In many cases, because the MIDI synthesizer runs on the computer’s main processor, there can be a short delay between when a MIDI instrument (that is connected to the computer) plays a note and when that note plays out the speakers.
On some computers, SoundMAX includes a MIDI synthesizer (which simulates musical instruments) which can play MIDI files. Some games and web pages create audio sounds using the MIDI synthesizer.

The key here is that the SoundMax allows playback of MIDI files featuring what they call “Down Loadable Sounds” Realize this is MIDI Music Synthesis via software instead of hardware.

I do not know how SoundMax implements their MIDI synthesis. I only know of one way to get some MIDI sound out of a chip that only shows MIDI Mapper [which as you may already know will never play MIDI]. You will have to use a Soft Synth.
See how with Robomusic’s Tutorial on Soft Synths here
http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.asp?..Csynths

If you want to play YOUR keyboard, the problem to be solved is how to connect the (music) keyboard to your computer, given that there are no existing MIDI cable connections via joystick port, etc.

Does your computer have a USB port available? You can buy hardware that acts as an interface to the MIDI keyboard, and plugs into the USB port. I haven’t tried one, but I am told that they work just fine. [USB 2.0 at least]

Other sound cards will work also. [Don’t ask me as I don’t know and don’t use or own a SoundMax.]

AUDIO
Audio Problems also seem to plague this card, perhaps because many of them are implemented in Half-Duplex Mode – Music Creator requires Full-Duplex.

If you search the forum and suggestions like What You Hear and Input Monitoring don’t work there is most likely a problem or conflict with your sound chip. It is not a sound card, but a chip attached to the motherboard.

I suggest that if a SoundMax owner is still unconvinced that they contact SoundMax tech support directly. http://forms.analog.com/Form_Pages/soundMAX/soundMAXSupport.asp
and find out why their chip causes so many problems with Cakewalk products. They will probably blame Cakewalk – but this one isn’t Twelve Tones’ fault. They will also probably refer you to your computer manufacturer – as each manufacturer can implement the SoundMax in different ways. They do provide links to all the computer companies that use their chip http://forms.analog.com/Form_Pages/soundMAX/soundMAXSupport.asp.
But in the end it’s the Tech Support world – too many keep blaming someone else, until eventually it’s all Bill Gates’ fault.

It does amaze me that people will blame Cakewalk when hundreds of thousands of people have no problem with their hardware. The prime variable is the sound card/ chip, and when problems consistently fall on a particular group of cards/ chips, and can’t be solved, it is unfair to blame Cakewalk. I have been very critical of Cakewalk when they deserve it [i.e. Documentation] and I admit that there can be software problems; however, how does it make sense to blame Cakewalk for a hardware problem? Especially when dealing with sound chips where the manufacturer doesn’t even use hardware drivers that can be updated when problems arise.

The SoundMax is a variation of the AC97 onboard sound chip, a notoriously problem plagued device. It is not always the cause of your problem, but I believe it IS more often than we would like to see. I regret that most computer makers, at least the ones that sell a lot, are using this chip. It works fine for gamers, but people like you, who only want to make music are ignored.

Sorry to say, that owners of SoundMax and AC97 onboard sound devices would save themselves a lot of frustration by simply purchasing an add-on sound card.

Someone wondered why I hate these onboard sound suckers. It’s because it is you and I who have to pay - and we deserve more for our money!

< Message edited by millerbill – 1/27/2006 4:13:42 PM >

Sticknick and X-track,

I’m sorry you are having so many problems. I hear this occasionally from posters here at N-Track, but I am unable to fathom why they continue to experience problems. Some of the things I have seen that can cause problems with N-Track are:

Software incompatibilities (Adobe software has screwed up N-Track for me before)

Driver corruption (I have seen this many times. If someone has problems with software that works for everyone else, the first thing I do is a clean reinstall of Windows. This often corrects all problems)

Hardware driver installation problems (I know for a fact that M-Audio USB Audio Breakout Boxes can have driver problems in Windows. I own a M-Audio USB DUO box and if you do not install the drivers EXACTLY as is stated in the instructions, you WILL have problems)

I would check all of the above before condeming a good piece of software. I have N-Track running on 3 different machines and all 3 are rock solid stable. Over the years, I have had N-Track running on over a dozen machines and the only one I ever had trouble with was a Pentium 233 machine (quite a few years ago).

As far as the crack about other software not being as buggy, that is just plain silly. Even the regal “Pro Tools” has its share of problems. In fact, I have access to a complete Digi002 Pro Tools setup at my office and I never use it cause it constantly crashes. I also owned 4 versions of Cakewalk before buying N-Track and all 4 versions of Cakewalk caused regular crashes. That was over $1600 thrown down the toilet… (if you still would like Cakewalk, I am more than willing to sell you a version or two :D )

Thanks for the real positive responses. I was not trying to say other software is perfect and n-track is evil. Other softwares (im not speaking just audio) tend to work more readily on a wider range of software than n-track.

I think simply rather than constantly forcing our machines to work with n-track, which if you think about it makes very little sense. We should instead be working hard to find the source of these bugs with and for flavio so he can make n-track more robust.

I think it’s important to remember that’s n-track that’s crashing, not your computer. It IS the software’s fault unfortunately.

Once again, Very happy 3.3 user. Dissapointed prospective 4.0 upgrader and somewhat saddened by the mentality I find on the forum (even though most everyone seems to be quite nice) that we should be the ones working to make the software work…sorry but the software should be working for us. At ANY price. Go browse sourceforge for 1000’s of programs that operate robustly on many systems and operating systems for free. That includes large scale video applications, which require more functionality and optimization than audio software, plenty of image suites (like gimp or inkscape). There are many many examples.

I care about n-track too much to let this kind of thing go on.

sticknick :

your pc and your laptop are both running XP SP2 , have you tried to disable DEP ?



you can try Microsoft Windbg to check the crash dump file (%SystemRoot%\Minidump by default) , but be aware that the whole symbols table takes about 800 MBytes

Quote (X-track @ April 02 2006,18:04)
I think simply rather than constantly forcing our machines to work with n-track, which if you think about it makes very little sense. We should instead be working hard to find the source of these bugs with and for flavio so he can make n-track more robust.go on.

Read my other post. I think that is based on a an ignorance as to how things actually are in the computer world. In the world of runtimes and programming frame works, the program is usually only as stable as the frame work itself will behave with the underlying hardware. I suppose an argument could be made that programmers should write all of this sort of stuff in assembly or C, but that isn’t practical because the next gripe folks will have is that it isn’t skinnable or looks ugly or new features only come out every 10 years as there is so much more work in the acutal programming of assembly or C.

The true savior here are standards that are strictly adheared to and this is often the fault of the hardware/driver makers. How many times has Flavio or anyone else had to write a work around in because M-Audio or whoever wrote a flakey non 100% ASIO compliant driver. IMO I think you are blaming the car maker for there being so many pot holes on the road.

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Software incompatibilities (Adobe software has screwed up N-Track for me before)


From a previous post:
I mean, I even did a fresh install of Windows with nothing installed but n-Track and it still blew up!


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Driver corruption (I have seen this many times. If someone has problems with software that works for everyone else, the first thing I do is a clean reinstall of Windows. This often corrects all problems)


From a previous post:
I mean, I even did a fresh install of Windows with nothing installed but n-Track and it still blew up!


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Hardware driver installation problems (I know for a fact that M-Audio USB Audio Breakout Boxes can have driver problems in Windows. I own a M-Audio USB DUO box and if you do not install the drivers EXACTLY as is stated in the instructions, you WILL have problems)


Done and done even before I started posting about the crashes. New version, old versions, all installed exactly the way the m-audio site says they should be.


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I would check all of the above before condeming a good piece of software. I have N-Track running on 3 different machines and all 3 are rock solid stable.


Everything and more has been checked and re-checked and re-checked again on both systems. I’m not one to blame software for being poo until I have checked every possible situation that could cause problems. I work as a software tester during the day and freelance building computer systems in my spare time. Maybe I sould have been more clear on that part.

Yes, I understand that ALL software has bugs. But there are bugs and then there are bugs. I deal with bugs five days a weeks, eight hours a day (12 when a new release is getting ready to go out the door). Finding bugs is my life and my bread winner.

But weird bugs are tolerable. I said in a previous post that I would have no problems dealing with something like “the VU meters show up in black and white if i send a reverb effect to AUX 1 on the master channel”. Big deal. I’d email Flavio and say "Look dude, a bug!"

At work if a customer finds a bug like that we ask: "Are you dead in the water? No? Then we will have a fix included in the next monthly patch."

If, on the other hand, the customer finds a bug that completely hoses their sytem and makes work impossible then it’s Emergency fix time. I have to drop everything I am doing to ensure that the customer gets their fix as soon as humanly possible.

That being said, I understand completely that n-Track is created, and supported my ONE guy. But if I was that one guy and I got an email saying “This program does not work on ANY system I try it on” I would at least send an email saying “I’m looking into it”. I’m not asking for an immidiate fix, I’m asking for some kind of acknowledgement that my email was received (auto responders don’t count).

As for the forums, they are good. I love listening to the new music that n-Track users have recorded. I love the discussions about different recording techniques. But I have to say that as soon as the issue of stability comes up I grow a tad wearly of hearing “It’s your system.” If so, then why does every other, single piece of software I own work? There was even a poll here asking what users would change. Even though only, like, 10 or so people responded, stability won out buy an 82% margin. That’s right. Eight out of ten people asked said they would like the program to be more stable.

Sorry if I’m offending anyone but it’s the way I feel. I love the n-Track interface. I love the fact that it was created by one person who is more interested in making a good multitracking program for the masses than he is with making money. But the fact that I have spent more time posting in these forums about my n-Track problems than I have actually recording with n-Track is beyond frustrating.