God made me says Bush

Quote (YazMiester @ Oct. 09 2005,17:19)
Close to 1000 furniture jobs lost here this year. Everyone can’t work at hospital or Mickey Dees. So what do we do?

I hear the Army is looking for a few good unemployed people…

George is getting everything he wants…

Well as for the votes… more than half the American people thought Bush was better than Kerry… both candidates were terrible.

Our politics need to be changed. We’ve gotten so complex in our issues that presidents have to resort to playing games with people’s minds in order to get votes. The debates looked like a game show this time around… Oh man Bush is leaning on his desk as he talks… Kerry can’t stop talking about his past war experiences… bla bla bla…

Back to the issue… Church and state have never been as separate as they are now… a quick look in history will tell you that. Wither or not the amount of separation needs to be more or less is up to the American people… and look who’s in office.

Nuff said.

Quote (VicksCornatto @ Oct. 10 2005,14:43)
Well as for the votes… more than half the American people thought Bush was better than Kerry… both candidates were terrible.

Our politics need to be changed. We’ve gotten so complex in our issues that presidents have to resort to playing games with people’s minds in order to get votes. The debates looked like a game show this time around… Oh man Bush is leaning on his desk as he talks… Kerry can’t stop talking about his past war experiences… bla bla bla…

Back to the issue… Church and state have never been as separate as they are now… a quick look in history will tell you that. Wither or not the amount of separation needs to be more or less is up to the American people… and look who’s in office.

Nuff said.

I think it is interesting how the truth to some is a lie to others depending on how it is worded. For instance:
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Well as for the votes… more than half the American people thought Bush was better than Kerry… both candidates were terrible.

This statement is inaccurate in so many ways. First off, Bush won just over half the popular vote of those americans that voted. Who knows whether more than half of americans thought Bush was better than Kerry. You could just as easily say that about half of americans that voted thought Bush was a terrible choice. Again, this would not be true, but is certainly more accurate a statement than Vicks statement. The statement that both candidates were terrible is a personal remark by the stater and not true in the eyes of many that voted. At this time when Bush’s true colors as an inept President have come to light, it is an easy statement to make and a cop out on the part of those that used to support Bush. Both candidates were not terrable and both candidates would not have put the country in the position it is in now. I can not say the a Kerry or Gore Presidency would have had much less turmoil. But we certainly would not be in the exact same position as we are today. I personally believe that the country would have been much better off in too many ways to name here.


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Church and state have never been as separate as they are now… a quick look in history will tell you that.


Huh? I would be interested in information that backs up this statement. I don’t believe that any President before has has stated that “God told him to do this or that” and he followed through. I also don’t believe that any previous President had such a strong religious following and made their views wholly part of his political agenda.

Tom is right on the money on this one. We are very close to a religious war between those who call themselves Muslims and those who call themselves Christians. And this is coming about because Bush can’t see past his personal religious ideals for the world and neither can Bin Laden. Right now in the US, church and state are becoming one just like parts of the middle east that we are fighting against.

Irony on a large scale…

Of course Bush wants to think that God made him. Do you want to think about YOUR parents doing it? Not me. Though, the more I know my parents the more I believe we indeed had a common ancestor to monkeys. Have you seen the stands at college football games? :;):

For religious people, as i try to be, times running are difficult. Appear that the concept is: religious guys are with Bush, and liberals are with… Michael Moore? Global world appear each day more and more polarized. But let me say that there are people like me that is really worry about the separation between church and state (yes in your country. “your” country has become a “public” country, you like it or not). More, religious people would must be the more active people working AGAINST the union between this two entities. Non majorities groups always has suffered this kind of union, and paid it with blood. Maybe this groups today are the majority, but this dont change the equation.
Im not a fan of Hugo Chavez (have you heard from him? the venezuela pres.), more, i dont like him very much. But hearing people like “Pat Robertson” talking about killing him and making active politic in the base of the republicans is scaring. And that is not isolated words, they reprsent a real way of thinking. And the more scaring thing is that they are silently growing, in number and influence.
So, i hope that the religious people of the big north country remembers to give Caesar what pertains him…

Quote (marce @ Oct. 10 2005,16:58)
religious guys are with Bush, and liberals are with… Michael Moore?

Ewww, Michael Moore? I hope not. Though, I think the lines are drawn all crazy any more. Somehow a liberal is also considered to be secular. Hardly the case. Just as conservatives are religious somehow. Err, no. I know plenty of repubs who are cold hearted business types and are the first to want to knock down the orphanage to build a parking lot. The same with liberals, I have friends who are very liberal in a “we vote for the liberal party” but are at church every Sunday. (I even played at their son’s baptism.) Heck, my whole mother’s side of the family is very “church every Sunday” types an dthey can’t stand Bush. Believe me, religion in and of itself ain’t got nothin to do with it. Going back to the election last year, it is much more a split of urban versus rural, haves and have nots, education versus ignorance. Now, don’t get into “you’re saying all conservatives/liberals are uneducated!” No, there are plenty of dopes waving both flags. Lot’s of hippies driving inefficient old cars and plenty of business men trying to dodge taxes. Hypocracy doesn’t have a political affiliation.

Thanks the clarification Bubba. I see thing from media and far fromt thre, so. How you see the rest of my message, think is a unjustified think?

Eyup!

I think you have a good point Marce, as I see it the problem is not with religion and state, but rather with religious extremism of all faiths. The extremists have the loudest voices and therefore the majority of ordinary decent people are not heard. From here in the UK, America appears to be becoming a nation of extreme right-wing religious fundamentalists who are willing to wage war upon those who do not agree with their views (inside or outside the country) I know in my heart this is not real, but the loud voices make themselves heard and it is difficult to ignore.

Steve

Quote (marce @ Oct. 10 2005,17:15)
Thanks the clarification Bubba. I see thing from media and far fromt thre, so. How you see the rest of my message, think is a unjustified think?

I think you pretty much nailed it, although there is more variety on the left than those of us who like Michael Moore.


Dr. G said:


Tom is right on the money on this one. We are very close to a religious war between those who call themselves Muslims and those who call themselves Christians. And this is coming about because Bush can't see past his personal religious ideals for the world and neither can Bin Laden. Right now in the US, church and state are becoming one just like parts of the middle east that we are fighting against.

Don't forget the dispensationalist aspect; I think most folks in the U.S. dont fully realize how much that is a driving force for some of the more influential folks involved.
Quote (Beefy Steve @ Oct. 10 2005,18:01)
From here in the UK, America appears to be becoming a nation of extreme right-wing religious fundamentalists who are willing to wage war upon those who do not agree with their views (inside or outside the country) I know in my heart this is not real, but the loud voices make themselves heard and it is difficult to ignore.

Steve

What makes you believe that "this is not real". It is real and extremists have got a strangle hold on the federal government. You should be worried. People in the US are also very worried. We are fighting a war because of oil and religion. We are making foreign and domestic policy decisions according to what a small number of people consider important bible verse. So please do not ignore it. People in the US are covering their eyes and hoping it will all go away soon. Even the Republican party members are starting to see Bush as a liability... even extremists like Ann Coulter.

As a side note, I remember when Bush was elected for the first time in 2004 (remember the Supreme Court put him in the first time), many democrats I know were distraught. I comforted them with the words, "No one man can ruin this country. The US is too big and a single president cannot hurt this country is such a short time." I guess I was wrong. Deficit spending is through the roof, we are in a war that we cannot win, poverty is growing, the threat of a pandemic is growing unchecked and the cities are dying.

So much for the compassionate conservative...

DrGuitar, it is a strange thing to be nostalgic for the good old GOP…

Quote (TomS @ Oct. 10 2005,18:25)
DrGuitar, it is a strange thing to be nostalgic for the good old GOP...

Isn't that the truth!!!

Ok, I must say that I can’t stand the universal blaming of Bush. He’s just the president. I know it’s customary to call a guy like me ignorant, for I don’t pay attention to news very much. Yeah crap goes down, people use God as an excuse all the time.

About church and state… yes it is very very very separate compared to our past as a whole. Yeah, ok, our president HAPPENS to be a Christian, but he also happens to be the rich republican type that I wouldn’t doubt went to war over oil. But just because we have a Christian in office doesn’t mean the separation has somehow diminished… Have you been to our schools? Do you see how weirded out we are by our president saying that he trust’s God, and believes in Him. Some of our greatest presidents believed in God… We are supposed to be a country that’s all about “freedom of religion,” does that now not apply to our president??? I see none of his actions to be based solely on the bible, or on the bible at all. The bible doesn’t say go to war over oil… It says, “Blessed are the peace makers for they are the children of God.”

If oil is the reason the president went to war, don’t blame the fact that he’s a Christian… blame the fact that he’s a republican business minded monster.

If you want to keep church and state separate, then don’t judge people on the fact that they are Christian… hence… I’m Christian liberal. Weird, eh?

Marce, you’re point is very valid. Religious folks as much as the secular should want a separation of church and state. To hae a religion crammed down your throat is a bad thing. However, to what Beefy said, extremism is a problem in that they see no problem with the cramming down throat approach because in their mind they are 100% right and you can’t talk them out of it. To an extremist, you essentially have given up your rights as a human and are an animal until you join them or get out of the way/die in many cases. Too bad many of them don’t read and understand the books that they claim to be so furvently supporting. :(

However, I see the roots of extremism in many other things. There are forces causing such rises in extremism. Firstly, I don’t think extremism is new. It just takes a nap from time to time. Most of the world has been extremist at one time or other be it the Crusades, the current Muslim car bombers, Buddhist/Hindu wars in the east a thousands of years ago. It seems everyone takes their turn. However, I fully believe these extremist uprising are caused by the same basic things… hunger, ignorance, opression, insecurity etc. It is not a religious thing, it is a psuedo desperation. You see extremism with racists, nationalists, and many others. It is not knowing any other way to behave to get what one wants.

To the racist or religious extremist, the other race or religion poses a threat. The black man will take our jobs, the communist will take my property, and the muslim will take my religion. Some of the fears may be real, but the answer is almost never anything to do with what the person is using to blame their problems on. When you live in a bustling economy with enough food on the table, people have a tendancy of totally not caring at all about what the extremist worries about all day.

First off Vicks, Bush is no christian. Oh, I know he says he is, but every christian I know thinks he is a poser. The problem is that the majority of extremist christians believe that Bush is a christian. I don’t think christianity is the problem, it is Bush’s view of what he thinks christianity means.

If we take Bush at his word, then we are at war to get Bin Laden and to free (the middle east) from oppression. Of course the oppression that Bush talks about is the muslim oppression of it’s people. I guess the extremist christian oppression against freedom of choice or television or hollywood or music or literature in this country is ok with Bush. He just doesn’t like women wearing burkas or men having to wear beards (tongue in cheek). Look, those who are without sin can cast the first stone and as far as I’m concerned, we have plenty of sinners in our own country. So why are we over seas killing innocent people for ideals or oil?

Why should I blame Bush? Because he put us here… all by himself. You are right in that this is not a christian war cause Bush is no christian. But he claims to be and as such is giving christians a bad name. Even worse, he has duped the extremist christians into believing he is doing Gods work. So does Bush need to be an actual christian to be leading a christian run government? No, he just has to pretend to be.

Lastly, I am a christian. I believe in Jesus’s teachings. I also happen to be politically independent. I don’t think either the Democrats or the Republicans have gotten it right yet. But I am concerned that Bush claims to be doing his deeds in the name of Jesus or God. Jesus never taught people to go to war. Jesus never taught people to ignore the poor. Jesus never taught people to accept only straight, taxpayers who live in this country. So if Bush isn’t talking to God, who is he talking to?

That is just horse manure Drguitar. President Bush is a real Christian. And he was chosen by the people of this county. If we made the wrong choice then that is the fault of the people. But now we made the choice. If you go to a bar one night and have a nominated driver will you tell him half way home when he is driving you dont wnat him to drive any more?
He listens to the LORD and was given the job by the people. He is not perfect but I think he is doing the best he can. Just be thankful that you are not trying to do his job.

Quote (DrGuitar @ Oct. 10 2005,20:21)
First off Vicks, Bush is no christian.


Quote (Gideon @ Oct. 11 2005,00:44)
President Bush is a real Christian.


So, um, what makes some one a real versus fake Christian? Personally I think folks will label a real Christian, a real Browns fan, a real wine fanantic if they are in agreement with their view… AKA, it’s arbitrary becuase folks will bend the definition to fit their needs in subjective matters. (And this is indeed a subjective matter.)

One side will say it is based on a man living like Jesus, the other says following the Bible. Another will say it is both living as the man and as the book. Considering Jesus himself never read or even had a concept of the New Testement, I would think the first is a more logical place to land f you are into such things, but folks will argue it either way. Arbitrary…

“Is a Christian”… “Is not a Christian” … that discussion is a red herring, I think. Wouldn’t it be better to say that his understanding of Jesus’ message is wrong? Somewhere along the line (shall we say the 4th century?) “being a Christian” changed from “acting like one” to “professing to be one,” and on that measure Bush has as good a claim as any. That a message of universal mutual interdependency, of compassion, of care, of concern for others, of nonviolence, of selflessness, could be twisted into a message of xenophobic hate, bigotry, intolerance, selfishness, and violence is a rather more interesting thing, and requires some thought. That so many people think this is what Jesus intended is really quite astonishing.

Gideon, if he is listening to God, he has peanut butter in his ears. Anyway, Bubbagump’s analysis seems absolutely correct to me, the underlying causes of these sorts of conflict usually have more to do with suffering and oppression than anything else.

Quote (TomS @ Oct. 11 2005,07:27)
Somewhere along the line (shall we say the 4th century?) “being a Christian” changed from “acting like one” to “professing to be one,” and on that measure Bush has as good a claim as any.

Well, technicaly, the Orthodox and Catholic churches still maintain this… (mortal sin, venial sin and all that.) You can profess all you want, but you gotta walk the walk. Though, they seemed to forget about this a bit a times…

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Gideon, if he is listening to God, he has peanut butter in his ears.


:D