Well, after seeing the “Is N Dead?” topic, I decided to throw another $34 at Flavio to see if there have been any changes since the last time I used N-Track. I have to say, I am very disappointed. As I said before, I have owned every version of N since the early version 2 days. And for many years,N was all I used. I really wanted it to work for me again. And I read that some folks have had good luck with it recently. So I bit.
I installed N over a fresh install of Win XP sp2 with all the NET updates. The machine is a rather old (yet reliable) AMD dual core running at 2.4ghz with 2GB ram and two fast internal hard drives (one for the audio files). I use an Alesis MultiMix 8 USB 2.0 to drop digital audio into my computer via a USB 2.0 (of course).
N-Track coughs and sputters with this system (as is did the last time I tried many months back). I get lots of error messages and spend more time trying to close error messages than actually recording.
I’m sorry this is starting to sound like a rant. I guess I was hoping for the old days when I would just start up N-Track and it would work. It has been so long since I had a stable N-Track environment that I can’t remember which version was the most stable. Plus, I am not even sure I have the old serials to version 3 any more.
Anyway, sorry folks. I really want this to work. I am still much more used to the N layout than the Reaper layout… but unfortunately that is changing daily.
Fortunately, it was just $34 down the toilet and not $399 like the old days of Cakewalk…
Take care,
Mike
I have the latest version of N on my 5yr old Toshiba Laptop that has XP professional with 496mb ram and a 2.2 processor, sound max digital audio soundcard and it works just fine for me with no problems.
I dont know whether XP pro is the difference or not?
across the forums you will find many people are suffering from your problem - this problem comes from manufacturers telling people that two cores are better than one - YES they are if the rest of the system is geared up for twin core - NO if the system is the same as a single core one with a twin cire CPU added - (many motherboards are single core units cobbled up to accept twin core CPUs) -
between the CPU and the rest of the system there is a device called the FSB (front serial bus) it is by this that the CPU communicates with other devices (memory chips etc) - for a single core CPU this should running at 800meg, if you are on a older system the FSB could be much lower, running at some 400meg -
if you take two identical PCs, one running at its FSB at 400meg and one running at 800meg the PC with the 800meg FSB will run twice as fast -
so whats the problem with twin cores ? - well here you have two processors fighting for control of a single device (the FSB) - (example) if the FSB is running at 400meg then for each of the core its equal to running the FSB at 200meg - if it is running at 800meg then its running at 400meg per core - so two cores running through an 800meg FSB can be twice as slow as a single core running through the same 800meg FSB - for two cores to work correctly the FSB should be running at 1600meg and faster for 4 core CPUs -
with a twin core CPU a 400meg FSB will only play back correctly half the amount of tracks that can be played back correctly on a single core CPU running an 800meg FSB - for two cores to playback what a single core CPU can, the FSB will have to run at 16000meg -
ALSO in Ns preferences there is a HYPERTHREADING tick box, this process tricks a PENTIUM SINGLE CORE processor into being two core device - as you already have two seperate cores make sure you have this box unticked as dual core processors may choke on this instruction -
iF your PC has a slow FSB there are one partial answer and one complete (well maybe) answer - the partial answer is to run N only on a single core - the complete answer is to replace the PC you have now and get a PC with a FAST (16000meg)FSB - but even then the problem may not go away as it depends on how (or IF) multicore processors are allowed within an application and that the multicore process is implimemnted correctly -
round and round we go -
DR J
Howdy Dr. J,
The motherboard I am using is the Asus A8V with a 2000mhz FSB. I don’t believe there is a motherboard made that runs a FSB at 16000mhz (16ghz). The bottle neck is certainly not in the front side bus. I also removed a driver wonkey Creative Soundblaster Live soundcard from my system. I have had that stupid sound card for many years and it has systematically screwed with other parts of my computer. When I did the fresh install of Win XP, I did not have the Live card installed this time. It this point, there should be nothing to keep N-Track from working properly. I have to wonder if I should install an earlier version and then the latest version on top of it. Maybe that is why some folks are finding some stability.
Thanks for the reply though,
Mike
Dr. J, interesting analysis of the FSB (I always thought it stood for Front Side Bus).
But I have to question your conclusions:
I have a dual processor on three different computers (1 AMD and 2 Intel – all running 800 FSB) and have always checked the Multithread audio processing box as I am under the impression that is what should be checked if you have a multi processor - actually I find little difference checked or unchecked. Unfortunately, the Help and Manual does not describe what the setting actually does.
That is truly unfortunate; as if you are correct it could well be a cause of some problems for people.
I do find a real difference if the DSP setting is left at 3 and I use 2.
I believe most all problems with Ntrack come from Audio and Video cards caused conflicts.
I have ONLY had trouble recording with Ntrack (and experienced the same problems with other software) when I tried to change my audio or video card. I have a Layla 20 and a Layla 24 and a 2 track USB Tascam 122.
I tried a Firewire interface and the thing sputtered and sounded terrible (Presonus 26X26).
My laptop will allow an external, second monitor, the extra monitor caused problems of the same sort.
That computer shared recourses between video and audio.
I run a 2nd monitor with my desktops with no problems when I have a video card with at least 128 of on board video memory
Modems are also said to cause conflicts but I don't use them as I have DSL.
One problem seems to come when someone does not have an audio card with a good clock and/or the Playback time and Record Time is checked to use the system timer.
I can foul up any of my computers if I check these boxes
I would be willing to guess that the problem is with the 8 track USB interface.
It might be that other software works better with USB or Firewire – I certainly can't claim to know, but I have several expensive programs and if they work, Ntrack works.
But the possibilities of a conflict, a fight for recourses as Dr J suggests is the problem.
My 2 channel USB works fine, but I can record up to 16 channels with my PCI interface cards with no problems and have yet to hit a wall with mixing.
I know I mixed 46 tracks before.
So, DrGuitar, my two cents, check out another recording interface that uses a PCI card and see what happens.
Your correct, Sound Blaster is terrible.
If Ntrack worked with the Alesis before, check for updated drivers.
If you need to get an old serial number for 3.3 I'm sure Flavio will send it to you.
Bax
Bax, you are correct; FSB stands for front side bus. And as yet I do not believe there are any home work stations available that run at a speed of 16ghz; I could be wrong since it has been a couple of years since I built this one.
Anyway, I was able to record fine with Reaper and Cubase today but not N-Track. For some reason (unknown to me) other multi-track software runs fine on my machine yet N-Track chokes and crashes. I also have am M-Audio USB DUO interface that works great with my machine, but not with N-Track. I even installed another USB 2.0 Hi Speed interface in case the on board USB 2.0 on my Asus A6V was possibly the problem. Twice today, N-Track crashed without doing anything at all. All I did was start it up and let it sit doing nothing. Within 20 minutes, it crashed.
And yes, I uninstalled it and reinstalled it in case something was corrupted during install.
I may contact Flavio for my old N-Track 3 serial numbers, get back to the good old days when N worked and count the money spent on versions 4 and 5 as a wash.
Mike
Sorry to hear of your woes Doc. Believe you me… been there, done that… moved on. I switched so I could make music, not fiddle with software trying to “force feed” it on my systems. The “other” software just works. Every time.
I’ll get the demo of V6 when it comes but it’s going to have to FLOOR me before I cough up any more cash. That’s just the way it is. For what I do, n just doesn’t work anymore. I know a lot of guys on here are working with it and having great success. I ain’t one of 'em but I am glad some are getting along fine.
Regards,
D
I may contact Flavio for my old N-Track 3 serial numbers, get back to the good old days when N worked and count the money spent on versions 4 and 5 as a wash.
I still run 3.3 and it does NOT perform as well as Reaper. I do like 3.3 because it is simpler to use than Reaper at first; however, as with any learning curve, once you get up to speed than it's not an issue.
I learned to live with the performance issues of 3.3 but as I indicated, it would crash when I used certain plug-ins. I do NOT have these issues with Reaper.
Thanks Mike. As I am getting a few more hours in with Reaper, I am finding it to be easier and faster to use. I’m guessing that I am finally done with N-Track. I’m not sure why, but I am feeling sad about this. I have used N for so long; it was the first multi-track computer program that I really sunk my teeth into. It served me very well for many years so I guess I’m feeling a pang of loyalty toward the program. That is probably why I continued to buy N-Track even knowing it was not working on any of my three computers.
I will always have a soft spot for N.
Mike
I have used N for so long; it was the first multi-track computer program that I really sunk my teeth into. It served me very well for many years so I guess I'm feeling a pang of loyalty toward the program.
Ditto...
D
had the same kind of experience and my opinion
was the dot.net stuff was the jumping off point.
version 4 worked pretty well but once it was rewritten
with dot.net (v5) thats when the power requirements
went through the roof and it became unusable…
reverting back to v4 has worked out ok for me,
fyi
I agree Count. Unfortunately, I can’t back up to V4. Added features I have to have started appearing after the .NET garbage.
D
I would like to see a sticky on this forum dealing with DAW configurations and their compatibility with n-Track.
I’ve been lucky. My last system was an Asus A7N8X Deluxe with an Athlon 2200 and I just built a new system around an Asus M2NPV-VM and an AMD 6400 dual core. I stuck with Nvidea chip sets because I’ve had good luck with them. I have M-Audio Delta 1010 and Delta 66 sound cards and n-Track has been incredibly stable. I went through version 4 without problems and now I’m on version 5.
I can’t blame you guys - if n-Track crashed all the time I would certainly move on to something else. It does appear that n-Track is sensitive to certain configurations but so far it’s gotten along fine with the DAWs I’ve run it on.
I have three different computers that have all failed the N-Track 5 test. The first and third have recently under gone a complete “clean” reinstall of Win XP and all the NET updates. There are many similarities between the three machines. All use AMD processors and all use ATI graphics. I have tried to switch around the various audio interfaces but that does not help at all.
Compaq Presario 2175US Laptop
AMD Athlon 2400+
1gb ram
M-Audio Duo USB
Radeon 320M Video
Win XP Pro SP2
Home built
AMD Athlon 64 2.2ghz
1gb ram
Radeon All In One
ESI Wamirack 192L
Win XP Home SP2
Home Built
AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual core 4600+
2gb ram
Radeon 850XT
Alesis Multimix8 USB 2.0
Win XP Home SP2
Mike
DrGuitar, that is just weird. I have an Athlon 64 X2 with an ATI All-in-Wonder card and I have no problem. I do not use any of ATI’s software - just the drivers. Could that be a problem? I have heard other folks say that ATI cards are sometimes a problem with audio programs, I may have been lucky. I heard the same thing about Nvidia, and I have one of those cards in my other computer. All my computers us Echo Audio Layla audio cards, and that may be my saving grace.
Echo Audio Layla audio cards, and that may be my saving grace.
Very well could be. That's what I use too and have had very few problems. I have used Echo Layla20, Gina24, and now a Layla24.
For a long time I had the Layla20 and Gina24 in the machine the same time, but couldn't use them at the same time because of clock issues. Because of the hardware design, those models can't sync together. I could in fact use them at the same time, but I could from record both at the same time.
I haven't had a chance to try anything new than the Layla24 so I suppose my stuff is getting a bit old.
At first I had a SB Live and the Layla20. I did in fact have issues when I added a net card to expand the home network. I had to take out the SB Live. It wasn't happy with the net card at all....and I wasn't happy with the SoundBlaster, so I pulled it out. It was a good move.
I had major issues after installing Win2k. After a lot of fiddling I finally figured out it was the video card drivers. Got a new video card that has real Win2k drivers and I was back in business. The symptom was random crashes and hangs. Everything would be going along well and either the system would hang, or blue screen. The video card that was trouble was a 3dfx card. The company was sucked into another company and the drivers never got out of beta.
Echo Audio released a troublesome driver once. I downloaded it and installed it. I left for Christmas vacation. When I got back I couldn't record. What I forgot was that I had updated the drivers. I had the latest Echo drivers....I THOUGHT. What happened was Echo pulled the bad drivers down and replaced them with good drivers something like the day I left for vacation. Simply downloading what I thought was the same driver and installing it again fixed the problem. I think they did rev the version, but I didn't catch it.
OH...I had a probem where what I was recording was playing back a step high and a few beats fast. It took a call the Echo to figure out out, and it wasn't even an Echo problem. I had just started using a Behringer ADA8000 preamp into the Gina24. What I forgot was that there is a switch on the back of the ADA8000 for 44.1k and 48k. It was set to 48k at factory. I was trying to record 44.1k in n-Tracks. n-Tracks was saving the wave files as 44.1k, and playing them back as 44.1k. That was OK as long as I was using the Gina24. When I switched to Layla20 playback the ptich and time was off. I discovered that n-Tracks was slaving to the soundcard, regardless of what the REAL sampleratre was. If I set it to 44k in n-tracks then it WAS 44k even if the clock was running at 48k. The Echo Audio guy figured it out and I learned about the 44-48 switch on the ADA8000. Yes, Echo has good support.
As for n-Tracks, there have been some beta versions that were not usable. Reporting the problem and trying the next builds has usually been good. Beta is beta. Always beware.
I've been lucky I suppose. Maybe there is something to Echo Audio Cards. I must say I'm almost afraid to try any other brand at home.
n-Track SHOULD work with any hardware by any manufacturer. That “other” program I am using has worked and worked well with EMU, Tascam, Presonus interfaces and a whole host of onboard sound chipsets. Admittedly, it prefers ASIO drivers for best performance but that’s pretty much true of all native audio apps.
D
I somewhat agree - everything “should” work on a PC, but unfortuantely, that simply is not the case. The fact that the IBM format (PC) computers got popular because anyone could build or write for the PC. This made PC’s cheaper than Apple/Mac because everything was controlled/proprietary. Macs still cost more, but they are standardized - still problems with drivers, but maybe not as many as PC’s.? There is just no way to check every configuration with every program. I completely agree that when we buy a program we should expect and are entitled to have it work. If the only computer program I ever had problems with was Ntrack, I would never use it - but that simply is not the case. At least when I have an issue with Ntrack, Flavio listens! I have returned a lot of hardware over the years that just didn’t work as advertized. Unfortunately, the software folks use the copyright laws to avoid returns - so I have a stack of programs that are junk to me! And their manufactor couldn’t care less. I have been told, “We have thousands of customers who use our program (hardware) without a problem - not our concern that it doesn’t work for you.” If they have a forum where they start getting complaints, they shut it down or censor it. Not happening here is it.
Someone has mentioned that a “pinned” section might be started with the configurations that work - I think that is a great idea - but remember, ALL of the components, ALL of the drivers and ALL of the loaded software has to be the same to be assured that there is not a conflict - That should not be that way either, but we do have to keep it in mind. Most of the time it may not be that crucial, but to be Positive, that is what is required.
For years I kept struggling with n-Track and its tendency to record dropouts. I would uninstall everything, reinstall drivers and essential stuff, and usually things would work fine … for a while, and then they’d start sputtering again. I had this with versions 3 and 4, with 3 different computers (all IBM Thinkpad laptops, but different audio chipset in each). Tried V5, but still sputtering, with ASIO4ALL/builtin or MOTU 828, recording just one 24/44 track.
Finally gave up and tried Reaper, which didn’t sputter recording 20 minutes of 16 tracks at 24/44 (8 MOTU analog plus 8 MOTU ADAT, actually 16/44 but recorded as 24 bits).
I miss N’s interface, which I liked to begin with. I found it easier to guess how to do something and guess correctly than with Reaper, where I struggled quite a bit just to find some pretty basic stuff. But, it’s always changing from something you know like the back of your hand to something new.
I wish I could keep using N, but I gave up the struggle.