I found this interesting..........



















Yep. I have no clue where the hippie/commie sterotype comes from.


These were all taken at a rally in Washington DC 10/2003 (best I can tell).




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Why is it “conservatives” turn up their nose at a suggestion to get Indian food and the “liberals” are all for it?


Because it smells funny? Maybe I don’t feel the need to eat some strange food that doesn’t suit my palette in an attempt to appear “multicultural” and “enlightened”. You ain’t gonna see an Indian dude eating a hamburger to fit in with my culture, and I have no problem with that. But to say that because I think food from country xxx tastes like shit makes me closed minded is just plain misguided.


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The academic world tends to be much more diverse.


Yes, that may be true. However, their idea of diversity is to demonize and stigmatize heterosexual males of European descent. “Cultural diversity”, as I have experienced it on campus, is more about the exclusion and dilution of European culture and the traditional nuclear American family values.

JOhn, I think you are missing my point(s)

1. I am not asking where the stereotype comes from in a cosmetic sense. Everything you posted shows the stereotype in that regards. That I understand. We have all seen our fill of hippies and to go this way is a red herring. The point at hand and what I don’t understand is where the “lack of morals” idea comes from. Other than our friend with no clothing, though not really immoral IMO but just innappropriate, where is the immoral behavior assuming these folks are truley represetative of the left (which they are not, but rather a subset of what I might call leftist radicals, though, what’s wrong with a little socialism?) Fighting for social justice? No war for oil? Those seem like moral pursuits to me. So the stereotype of “no morals” I just do not understand.

2. Some folks just like Indian food and if you think folks want it just for enlightenment, well, that is a bit short sighted in my opinion. The point is not that you should eat it fit in or for show, but because the stuff tastes good. Turning your nose up just because it is Indian is prejudicial IMO. I don’t know who said your culture and your food is bad. You read an awful lot into what I said. My point was the propensity for folks to try things outside of their comfort area is higher when they are exposed to different cultures on a more regular basis. You took it in a very negative light as if their is something wrong with or someone is attacking meat and potatoes. Not the case at all. And um, you will see an Indian dude eating a hamburger, you just need to know where to look. As a side note, to not extend curtesies because someone won’t recipricate 100% is not how I choose to operate. (He won’t eat my hamburger, so I won’t eat his chickpeas.)

3. You had a professor who over stepped her bounds and made those statements. Do you really believe that in general this is the concensus of opinion? I doubt it highly. Half of academia in this country are white males. A few angry feminist professors do not speak for the whole. Also, this is in your experience and I might argue that experience is 50% reality and 50% perception. Perhaps insecurities and attitudes can effect ones experience on campus be it in a positive or negative light. Perhaps as a white male you felt attacked. I would think it a shame if you were to take this negative experience and create a prejudice in your head. I see that as no different that being racist based on the fact that once a black person stole something from you. That was that one person, not the whole race. I hope you have not chosen to look at all of academia based on one person or a subset.


As a side note, how is it that “traditional nuclear American values” are the right and only values that should be taken into account? How is that a flawless sytem that should not be examined and reconstructed if necessary? To toss this aside or to fully embrace it whole sale with no examination of it in as much an objective light as one can take is folly IMO.

John,

Inflamatory pictures aside, what made you believe that those were liberals? They looked more like socialists to me. Socialists do not equal Liberals. Not even close. To call them liberals is to call conservatives Fascists. And I don’t think that is true. To put pictures like that up as the liberal majority would be like me putting up a picture of people bombing a medical clinic where abortions have been performed and call them conservatives.

Try not to just flame people you don’t agree with. It is not becoming of the open-minded, free thinker you are.

take care,

Mike

As a real life academic I think any generalizations about academia are problematic, although it is a statistical fact that we tend to vote dem more than repub - but there are plenty of conservative repubs. By the way, medical doctors tend to be repubs, and lawyers tend to be dems. :)

Anyway, the reason we tend to vote dem is b/c dems support schools more than repubs.

What school do you attend, John? As has been observed, teachers are mostly careful not to weigh in on one side or another politically. Would you believe that most of my students think that I am a republican? They do, although you guys know better.

Gotta go talk about Kant now. :)

We have all seen our fill of hippies and to go this way is a red herring. The point at hand and what I don't understand is where the "lack of morals" idea comes from.

Some thoughts:
1 - Perceptions have consequences because we act upon what we perceive/believe to be true. If one gives off the appearance of being amoral, he will probably be treated as amoral.
2 - Moral relativism. It all depends upon what you (or anyone) perceive to be moral. Some of the groups that associate with the left (gays, pro-choice, legalize pot, whatever...) are considered to be amoral by others. However, to call someone that supports traditional marriage and family amoral is silly. On the other hand, the Right certainly has its share of wickedness (Enron and their ilk).

My point was the propensity for folks to try things outside of their comfort area is higher when they are exposed to different cultures on a more regular basis. You took it in a very negative light as if there is something wrong with or someone is attacking meat and potatoes.

This is what you said:

Why is it "conservatives" turn up their nose at a suggestion to get Indian food and the "liberals" are all for it?

The tone is such that you are saying that Conservatives are somehow prejudiced against foreign food, while the Liberals are free of this prejudice. Now... Step back and look at your sentence.... You have made generalization and a stereotype, in your attempt to say that Conservatives are generalizing and stereotyping ("all foreign food is bad because it's foreign").
:p

As a side note, to not extend curtesies because someone won't recipricate 100% is not how I choose to operate. (He won't eat my hamburger, so I won't eat his chickpeas.)

I never said that, and never implied that either. My point was that it's OK not to like food, no matter where it comes from. It doesn't have to mean that someone isn't "culturally enlightened" or anything. Sheesh... I don't like seafood, but all it means it that I don't like seafood, not that I have a prejudice against fishermen.


A few angry feminist professors do not speak for the whole. Also, this is in your experience and I might argue that experience is 50% reality and 50% perception. Perhaps insecurities and attitudes can effect ones experience on campus be it in a positive or negative light. Perhaps as a white male you felt attacked.
“Felt” attacked?!? If her diatribes had been directed at any other group with the same amount of hatred, she would have been booted from campus.


I would think it a shame if you were to take this negative experience and create a prejudice in your head. I see that as no different that being racist based on the fact that once a black person stole something from you.

Now you’re calling me prejudiced, and even trying to drag racist into the accusation. Nice try, jackhole. Funny, I mention negative racial attitudes against white males and you attempt to turn it around to accuse me of being the racist. Real cute.

That was that one person, not the whole race. I hope you have not chosen to look at all of academia based on one person or a subset.

Cut the sanctimonious crap. Of course I’ve got other teachers that don’t drag their personal doctrine into the classroom. I try not to stereotype and generalize; maybe you should try the same.


As a side note, how is it that "traditional nuclear American values" are the right and only values that should be taken into account?


Again with the moral relativism. My opinion: man and a woman make a baby and raise said baby together, both contributed to the balanced development that comes from having both a masculine and feminine influence.


How is that a flawless sytem that should not be examined and reconstructed if necessary?

Ummm… If it’s flawless (your words, not mine), why destroy it?
Quote (TomS @ Mar. 31 2005,13:39)
What school do you attend, John? As has been observed, teachers are mostly careful not to weigh in on one side or another politically.

Nothing major, just a junior college here in Houston, and I only take one or two classes per semester. The bias that I experienced was blatent enough that the instructor wrote a short note of apology when I pointed it out to her.

Of course I firmly believe that everyone has a right to their opinion, but as you pointed out, teachers have a responsibility to maintain some sort of middle-ground in the classroom.

After my experiences, of course I went looking on the web to see if it was just me... Here is one of the sites that I found:

http://www.academicbias.com


I havn't spent much time there, other than to confirm that I wasn't paranoid, or crazy. :;):
Step back and look at your sentence.... You have made generalization and a stereotype, in your attempt to say that Conservatives are generalizing and stereotyping

Um, yeah, exactly. Just an attempt to further illustrate the problems with stereotypes. Read the sentence about hotdogs and curry.

I never said that, and never implied that either. My point was that it's OK not to like food, no matter where it comes from. It doesn't have to mean that someone isn't "culturally enlightened" or anything. Sheesh... I don't like seafood, but all it means it that I don't like seafood, not that I have a prejudice against fishermen.

Okay, I guess we are on the same page but just saying it differently. I took it as though your were implying those things. Such is the imperfect communication of the message forum.



“Felt” attacked?!? If her diatribes had been directed at any other group with the same amount of hatred, she would have been booted from campus.

Yup, probably. We call those double standards and they are nothing I condone.


Now you’re calling me prejudiced, and even trying to drag racist into the accusation. Nice try, jackhole. Funny, I mention negative racial attitudes against white males and you attempt to turn it around to accuse me of being the racist. Real cute.


No, I said "IF". I do not pretend to know what is in your head. "IF" that were the case it would be a shame. And no, I did not call you a racist. I simply stated that the two lines of thought are quite similar. PErhaps a poor choise of words. I do not believe that one should judge an entire group (especially one as diverse as the whole of academia) based on the actions of a few and such thinking I believe leads to prejudice be it racism or otherwise. HAting academia is not the same as being racist. That makes you an anti-academia-ite, not a racist. (That was a joke ala Seinfeld BTW.) However, I will say we are all prejudiced. There is no one who isn't. I freely admit I am prejudiced against mushrooms, men carrying guns, large dogs, and spiders. Ick!

Of course I’ve got other teachers that don’t drag their personal doctrine into the classroom. I try not to stereotype and generalize; maybe you should try the same.


I can't see where I have done such things other than in fascetious attempts to make a point against them. Perhaps that is where you mistook me.

Again with the moral relativism. My opinion: man and a woman make a baby and raise said baby together, both contributed to the balanced development that comes from having both a masculine and feminine influence.

So long as it is your opinion, no sweat. The problem as I see it comes where folks take it from opionion and turn it into a ram rod down others throats. But I also don't understand the problem with moral relativism, or is there a problem?

Ummm… If it’s flawless (your words, not mine), why destroy it?

Agreed. But I was asking a question, not stating a fact. Perhaps I was not verbose enough and assumed to much. I used the word flawless as hyperbole. My question is how is that standard seen by some as the one to measure all others against?
Quote (Mr Soul @ Mar. 29 2005,19:21)
I saw this earlier today. No surpise there & nothing really to comment on.

Sure...but if it said "College Faculties Full of Conservatives" you'd be off your rocker! Not a very "liberal" way of thinking IMO. :D

TG

Some schools are conservative intentionally, some are liberal intentionally, but most are intentionally open to whatever. As an academic I know that some of the rhetoric people have used in this thread is empty 0- e.g., “angry feminist professors” - that one smacks of Rush ditto head himself!

To establish that there is some sort of liberal bias we’d have to define “liberal”, define an unbiased (centrist?) position, and then do soem sort of study to show that there is such bias. Academics tend to vote democratic, but you can’t say that tells you anything about the classroom.

You know, the “liberal bias” charge has a source - and you guessed it, in the Christian fundamentalist academic community, which mostly does not share mainstream academia’s committment to free and open inquiry. What surprises me is that such charges ever get off the ground. Sure we have all had bad teachers; there are incompetent people everywhere. We’ve also taken clases where the teachers present us with ideas that we don’t like. But that’s the teacher’s job, in a secular higher education setting. One must not mistake a challenge for socialization - unless one thinks that the enlightenment ideals of free and open inquiry as the best way to pursue truthis flawed - as do those fundamentalists who are the origin of this attack.

Sorry, didn’t mean to drag in fundamentalists, but a fact is a fact, and it needs to be said. :)

As an academic

I didn't know you were a teacher Tom. Where do you teach?

It's funny. I've been a teacher going on 32 years and I never once referred to myself as an "academic". I like the sound of that, but I wouldn't feel comfortable using the term on myself. I guess I am just too much of a Bozo.

take care,

Mike

That term “fundamentalist” gets bandied about a lot. You know the most important thing? We are ALL fundamentally human beings. It does not matter where you were born, the color of your skin, your social status, level of education etc… What does matter is how you treat other people.

The reason I said that comment about education = “enlightenment” is crap is because academic education does not necessarily improve a persons view of him/herself and others. Quite the contrary, more often than not, I get the “I’m better than you because I graduated from XYZ University, with a BS in BS.” attitude. So if “enlightenment” = snobbery, count me out.

Doc Mike made a couple of excellent observations;

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At some point they realize that they will never really reach the end but that the journey is the whole point


THAT is as true in the context of LIFE/DEATH as it is in the reference to learning the guitar. I don’t want to leave the path of my journey strewn with people I have hurt. The journey and what we make of it IS the thing.

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Ignorance is bliss and it is much easier not knowing and being happy with it then learning and realizing your limitations.


There is some truth in that as well. A word about limits though… the ONLY limits are the ones you impose on yourself. We all have freewill and can CHOOSE a limit. Or not.

Johns comments about the Sociology professor; This is exactly the same reason I get torqued about celebrities who try to use their audience holding ability to spew THEIR political agendas. Holy cow! I paid for a concert and get a brainwashing session? Same deal, don’t sit me down in a class I am PAYING for and throw YOUR opinions/views on me. Education should not be about memorization or brainwashing. It should help a person to learn how to discover things and think for themselves.

Thanks guys. It’s been informative and entertaining. I must say though… I STILL think that as a species, WE ARE DOOMED. The gene pool has been too polluted by ignorant, prideful, predjudiced DNA.

TG
There is some truth in that as well. A word about limits though.... the ONLY limits are the ones you impose on yourself. We all have freewill and can CHOOSE a limit. Or not.


The limitations I spoke of were meant as current (immediate) limitations of your ability to play a specific piece of music. Of course the only real limitation is your time on earth. Other than that, if you have the time, you can learn anything.

just trying to speak clearly in what is a very limited language...

Mike

Limitations, in life and guitar. Treating life the same way of learning guitar or any other obstacle. Are you biased in your love of music? Do you turn your nose up at certain forms of music? I know I make fun of certain bands but, I have played in multi-formatted bands thru the years. Playing or listening to only one form of music will make you biased (prejudice). I myself treat life and people the same as music, always open. Music is the one thing that has taught me this. Teachers jobs in the classroom aren’t to maintain a happy medium between politics and cultures. It’s to help students open their minds to thinking for themselves. Call it liberal, conservative, klingon or whatever. Sometimes the rants and topics folks on here start show their biased opinions strongly. Not really sure if they see it themselves but, putting down one group only hurts the group they are trying to defend. Catch 22. Before pointing a finger and crying the blues, take a look in the mirror and examine ones self a little more closely. I have, and saw some things I didn’t particularly like. I’m trying to do better on these. One in particular is the dislike of strats, LOL.

“Man’s gotta know his limitations” :D

Quote (TomS @ Mar. 31 2005,19:13)
As an academic I know that some of the rhetoric people have used in this thread is empty 0- e.g., "angry feminist professors" - that one smacks of Rush ditto head himself!

Actually I don't listen to Limbaugh, he's too arrogant even for me! :D

As for the angry feminist... well... You can call a pile of poop a rose and it's still gonna stink. :p
Quote (Bubbagump @ Mar. 31 2005,15:27)
Okay, I guess we are on the same page but just saying it differently. I took it as though your were implying those things. Such is the imperfect communication of the message forum.

:)


Let's agree to agree on the things that we agree on, and also to disagree on those that we don't.

It's tough to have discussions like this without being able to read the body language of other person.

:cool:

TG, I think you mean to say that “formal education” and enlightenment are not the same thing. Perhaps not, but it sure is a lot more likely to lead to enlightenment. Any education is better than no education, and formal education is usually better than informal. So it doesn’t necessarily lead to enlightenment, in whatever sense of that word, but it sure is the best way to go in most cases.

DrGuitar/Mike, I teach philosophy at Mott Community College in Michigan. Before that I taught undergrad and graduate stuff at U Ark. at Little Rock. Before that…well, it’s a long list. :) But it’s good to be back in Michigan.

Quote (DrGuitar @ April 01 2005,00:17)
There is some truth in that as well. A word about limits though.... the ONLY limits are the ones you impose on yourself. We all have freewill and can CHOOSE a limit. Or not.


The limitations I spoke of were meant as current (immediate) limitations of your ability to play a specific piece of music. Of course the only real limitation is your time on earth. Other than that, if you have the time, you can learn anything.

just trying to speak clearly in what is a very limited language...

Mike
Yep. I understand you Mike. I'm just saying it can be applied in a broader sense as well.

TG :)
Quote (John @ April 01 2005,08:45)
Quote (Bubbagump @ Mar. 31 2005,15:27)
Okay, I guess we are on the same page but just saying it differently. I took it as though your were implying those things. Such is the imperfect communication of the message forum.

:)


Let's agree to agree on the things that we agree on, and also to disagree on those that we don't.

It's tough to have discussions like this without being able to read the body language of other person.

:cool:

Yup. Body language and inflection are important things that I think a lot of folks take for granted. Any who, we're cool. :)
Sometimes the rants and topics folks on here start show their biased opinions strongly. Not really sure if they see it themselves but, putting down one group only hurts the group they are trying to defend. Catch 22. Before pointing a finger and crying the blues, take a look in the mirror and examine ones self a little more closely. I have, and saw some things I didn't particularly like.

AH! A ray of light! :) :)

If everybody (especially our elected officials) would examine themselves a little closer, with an open mind and open heart, we would be better for it.

TG
Quote (Bubbagump @ April 01 2005,09:22)
Quote (John @ April 01 2005,08:45)
Quote (Bubbagump @ Mar. 31 2005,15:27)
Okay, I guess we are on the same page but just saying it differently. I took it as though your were implying those things. Such is the imperfect communication of the message forum.

:)


Let's agree to agree on the things that we agree on, and also to disagree on those that we don't.

It's tough to have discussions like this without being able to read the body language of other person.

:cool:

Yup. Body language and inflection are important things that I think a lot of folks take for granted. Any who, we're cool. :)

Next round is on me...

Do you take salt and lime with your tequila, or are you a man about it?

:cool: