Reply in another Thread…
Hi Today, Gents:
I was going to reply and post this comment in another thread…
Then I came to the conclusion that these thoughts were somewhat Off-Topic…
I wonder if some of You… AND/OR… the regular Forum Members are affected by any of these ideas and what your comments might be to this topic and for discussion…
Maybe, this stuff isn’t worth the effort to discuss…
These are some of the thoughts that I’m grappling with today and how this has affected me for the audio and projects that I have created over the past several years…
It seems like the Audio Hardware and Software Manufacturers and Microsoft leap-frog themselves into all kinds of issues with us, and me in particular, as an audio tracker/user.
Most of these Microsoft updates are not able to be removed from your Operating System after they are installed…
After you install the updates your audio hardware seems to be useless or less than effective than it was before the updates were installed…
I thought these Service Pacs were downward compatible to-and-for the users.
Apparently, not so…
I think the Hardware-and-Software Manufacturers and Microsoft should get together and “Make-It-Right”…
then leave it alone and not try to fix it…
It seems like all of this has been going on sense Windows '95… and before. Their Fixing-and-Corrective conventions for issues that are audio related, doesn’t appear to be standardized…
In my opinion…
It seems like the Audio Manufacturers-and-Users of Microsoft Operating Systems suffer the most from all of this maneuvering… AND…
Microsoft has no support and has little-or-the-least regard for Audio People…
that use their Operating Systems.
It’s like Microsoft tells their users (Like ME) how Audio should be manipulated-and-edited with their Operating Systems… I think this should be the other way around…
It seems as, I’m unable to properly explain, so it makes sense, how-and-what I’d like my set-up to preform, for me.
If only I knew how to write-and-code Software…
If I remember correctly…
it was back in the early-to-mid '90’s, and maybe before, that there was this big exodus out of Hi-priced Analogue Audio Hardware and
into computers and all this expensive audio hardware was sold-off or trashed for the want of better audio with less audio
maintenance in the studios…
Well…
NOT SO…
when you have to side-step Microsoft and it’s creative audio ideas… Even the Apple/Mac Studios suffered, Big Time…
I hear that, in most cases, the only Studios that have survived all of this are the ones that didn’t sell off their analogue hardware…
It would be nice if the Microsoft Audio Users could take more responsibility as to how they would like to see their Digital Audio directed, in the future… instead of having Microsoft force us out of Audio Hardware that has worked perfectly, in the past…
It seems like all the Hardware Manufacturers are affected with on-going issues like this, in some ways…
OR…
could this be built-in obsolesce 
? that costs the users all their hard-earned money…
If you are not aware yet…
Flavio is almost ready to launch a New Version of n-Track…
I like new versions of and updates of software as long as I don’t have to give up features that work well in earlier versions-and-builds…
I’m trying to bring along my Lexicon and Hoontec STA 2000 Audio Hardware and into the latest Microsoft Operating System Software…
It just don’t work right… OR…
work at all, anymore…
The topic of this thread seems to be affecting all of us…
in some ways… It would be nice to not have to deal with any of this as time progresses…
Bill…
Some big questions there Bill. I’ll splurt our some thoughts as they pop into my head with no structure or thought.
I run a team of software developers as a day job so I kind of have some sort of inside track on this although what we do is a million miles away from creating a huge operating system.
I think Microsoft have done a phenominal job over the last 10-20 years to bring desktop computing to the masses. I know that’s often not a popular thing to say but look at where they have taken us. Prior to Windows 3.1, my experience was programming on, and managing Unix boxes. You needed specialist skills just to be able to turn the thing on. Now even a grandma can get a PC going with a windows OS. (I’m not convinced that Linux is even close to that yet despite its fans).
But having thousands of programmers writing millions of lines of code sometimes things go wrong. Sometimes it’s not even the code - it’s conflicting requirements.
Now add in folks like Creative or M-Audio, knocking out cheap cards for us enjoy. Another few tens of thousands of lines of driver code plus maybe some embedded code, on hugely complex ICs/chips. Sooner or later the million monkeys and a million typewriters effect comes into place and KABOOM - something somewhere conflicts with something somewhere else.
Now add the commercial pressures. We all want a 24/96 card at $99US with great drivers and nice packaging. It needs to be on the streets by a certain date to fit the market projections, and the shareholders desires (greed?). Result: Pressure. Get it out there. Don’t spend more time/meetings/resource than necessary or the price goes up and the thing is delayed.
But even though MS have done wonders to bring computing to the masses they still have not been able to totally hide the inner workings from the user. We still need to understand Firewalls, Virus scanners, disk space, USB ports, the concept of drivers, etc, etc. Some folks are better versed in this than others which means that sometimes there is an element of PEBKAC (google it!), which is not a derogatory statement - it’s just true. If you don’t know, you don’t know.
Anyway, I’ve run out of things to say and I need a cup of tea now. Not even sure if I came anywhere near addressing your points Bill :-)))
Hi Mark A:
We woke up this morning here in the middle of some bad weather blowing over us.
It started as bitter cold weather for about a week now…
We really need a break from it…
However, the wind came around and we knew we were in for it.
It began to warm up yesterday and began to snow…
Over night it has continued to warm up till it came down as hail and ice…
The temperature is gonna continue to rise till it comes down as rain…
At least that’s what’s forecast for us over here.
Anyway, there is no work today for me.
I need to stay out of the weather…
and look for something to do…
inside.
As you can see, we are closely tied to the weather…
Instead of greeting someone with HI…
or what’s going on??
We say …
Good Weather…
OR…
What next are we gonna get…
?
Not only is our weather tied to the southern USA…
So is our economy…
Maybe that should be the other-way around…
Most of us feel so insignificant over here… Forget about the politics…
and all…
I didn’t want to post my reply so soon…
Anyway, I am seeing more-and-more audio guys complaining about their setups as they progress with installing updates for their operating systems and then searching for Fixes, drivers and utilities for their machines and hardware…
We seem to be wound up in some cycle of what comes first…
I used to plan for an up-coming project…
I’d make notes …
mental and paper to what I like to end up with…
Then I’d get the electronics and hardware and computers set to create…
I begin to track and assemble my tracks and creativity and have little-if-any issues while my creativity has peeked and played out my musical ideas.
Could I be the only one (audio person) dealing with this ? Maybe, I need to come up to speed with all this outdated hardware I’m using… I seem to get in the middle of track creation when some technical issue shows up… I have to toss it all out in the trash and try to fix something that has nothing to do with creativity…
I’m not the kind of guy that can deal with computer issues… I grope around and find a work-around for the issue but by then my creativity has all but disappeared.
All of this leads me to believe that I need a turnkey tracking system… I like the idea of spending time preparing editing and mastering tracks… In-The-Box…
I’ve run outta tracks to work-with… The Turn-Key System that I’m looking at to Track with is beyond my means…
Trying to connect World Class Audio Hardware to an Operating System that is mostly used for Internet Browsing is maybe the Bottleneck that is facing us as Audio Users…
I agree, I wouldn’t want to spend my days stringing code together… I don’t think I’d survive if I had to sit in front of a keyboard (writing code) and listen to the weather passing by…overhead…
Anyway, daybreak is on it’s way…
I’m on a Green Tea Kick…
Bill…
Hey Bill, I can respond from a different perspective. I’m actually pleased and amazed that my DAW setup (AMD Athlon 2200) works as well as it does. It’s incredible that I can buy a very good sounding 8 channel interface (Delta 1010) that has solid drivers and use a program like n-Track that has been very stable. I’ve never experienced a stability problem after an automatic OS update either. Throw in a bunch of plugins and it’s amazing how seldom I get a crash.
As good as things are, I’m going to have to upgrade my system. I’ve bought a few more plugins that I really like that are resource hogs, i.e. PSP Vintage Warmer, and during mixing my CPU load is often going above 70%. When my computer barfs it is always when the CPU load is up around 70% to 80%.
I’m in the process of building a new DAW which will have a dual core AMD 6400. I chose a proven board with nVidia chipsets that has a reputation for stability and I’m sticking with Win XP. When I get this board up and running I’ll post a report on how it’s working out.
I think that if a recordist is willing to build their own system, research the components, and use proven workhorse interfaces it is possible to record with a minimum of computer problems. At least it’s worked that way for me. I don’t upgrade a system often and when I do I don’t go with the absolute newest technology. I like to wait until something’s been out for awhile, there are cutomer reviews of it, and it has a good reputation. All I can say is so far so good.
Hi Bill,
Quote:
It seems like all of this has been going on sense Windows '95… and before.
I believe after Win95b and Win98, they changed the requirements
for writing hardware drivers, due to the fact that some manufacturers were writing crappy drivers that were adversely affecting other software. A Hardware Abstraction Layer was added
to ensure driver compliance.
Before that, you could write a driver that would talk directly to
the hardware (i.e. sound card, or video).
Supposedly higher processor speed negated the extra layer of kernel
interface code, but my own opinion is that this really was a step
backwards in the effort to unify driver code.
I don’t think MS was ever designed with the musician in mind.
It was an afterthought, and it’s a testament to MS that it
works as good as it does.
"It’s like Microsoft tells their users (Like ME) how Audio should be manipulated-and-edited with their Operating Systems… I think this should be the other way around… "
Bill, darn strait, very well said. But unfortunately, I think a buncha us people that try to make computers record, try to manipulate waves, etc, are going to run into problems. My main problem is software drivers for what I use. Your’s might be something else.
Regards,
Chiller
Hi,
My way of avoiding a lot of potential problems is to have plugable hard drives in caddies for diiferent uses. So my normal internet and word proccessing drive is Win XP. But interestingly my recording drive is Win98 with n-track 2.3 only the n-track plugins and a Delta 1010 which is virtually rock solid and will record 30 plus 24 bit tracks for hours on end on a P3 933. I’ve experimented with later versions of both Windows and n-track but then it all gets worse for me rather than better. Even a faster computer p4 2Ghz was no better.
Nick
Yeah… I wouldn’t be too quick to start flinging blame at Microsnot. Audio users make up a tiny fraction of their user base. Their direction is determined by the largest user base. WE ain’t it. 
However, one can get the most out of this game by buying software and hardware from reputable companies who will be around for the long term. I know that’s tough to do sometimes because how are we to know a distant company in cyberspace (or where ever) is two days away from folding their tents? It’s a gamble… Such is the case I think for our Newfie friend Bill. Hoontec folded and sold to ST Audio I think it was…(??) Driver development ceased and now what you have is IT. Some of us who went M-Audio, MOTU, Echo, Tascam etc have really come out pretty lucky.
D
Lets see…I have been recording into into a computer since the early 80’s, before multitracking, with a DOS program and 8 bit files.Remember VOC files? Then Windows 3.1, you had to run multiple instances of Sound Recorder and cut and splice between them. Sound Blaster was the only dog in town, WAV was a cool new the file format. To share the files with friends I had to Zip them then use SPLICE IT for multiple disks and save them to a 5 1/4 or 3 1/2.
A neat little program showed up, N-Track Studio, a god send. Inexpensive low learing curve…YAHOO!! Oh and over the years I have tried them all Cool Edit, Cakewalk, Pro Tools LE, Wave Lab, Sound Forge…just to name a few.
Seems there is a continual leap frogging that goes on. Hardware ahead of soft/ then the opposite.
So here I am today. Vista, 4 gigs of ram, duo core processor, dual monitors multiple in & outs; software to take advantage of it all. For me, limitations and how I create, use, or do audio is more my under/ or /misunderstanding of the software I am using.
MSoft has done a good job over the years. However I have been pissed for the past year with 3rd party vendors and drivers for Vista. These are the people that have dropped the ball. But even this is getting better.
As for turn key…I use a Yamaha MD8 for instruments, upload those tracks once mixed using MTC for timing. Upload option of individual tracks or stereo mix. Vocals are added direct using the MD8 as a mixer. Outboard compressor and stereo multi-effects via bus on MD8.
I used to tell people that if I ever won a lottery the first thing I would do is build my own studio and spend hours upon hours just playing and recording.
I never won a lottery but, thanx mostly to MS, I have been able to put together my own studio even if its not the greatest. I am very grateful even though I too have to throw things out that I still want to hang on to.
Actually my old TEAC reel to reel can still be used, but its not needed anymore because of technological replacements.
Thats OK.
The same with old amplifiers, mixers, reverb units…etc.
I never quite get it when people want to get down on MS because something isn’t working correctly or prices are outrageous or tech support isn’t as expected or state of the art becomes obsolete…
I really can’t think of too many other contributors who have so changed the ENTIRE WORLD OPERATION. People like A.G. Bell, T. Edison, etc. But, they only come along once in a while.
cliff
Hi Gents:
I got busy and I just connected to the Internet to check my mail and maybe browse this Board…
to see what new posts, ideas and topics are being discussed and all…
I like your idea, nick…
There was a time back in my P-11 days when I had removable drives that I used to store Projects on…
The idea worked well up to about 8-10-12 tracks…
The caddies were 40-pin ribbon wire…
The Bottleneck became the “Streaming” of data above that number of tracks…
I still used the removable drive idea into the early P-111 days…
Maybe, if I got into 80-pin caddies I’d still be there…
However, I moved into the IDE-Raid system of storing Data/Audio Files…
I’m still there…
My friend that I call RADAR Wayne (he Has opted into RADAR/Turnkey /SCSSI Raid and Top-End Digital Audio wound himself up and into the Hi-End World…
By going that route he has closed the door with working Audio Guys below that elite level…
and has limited himself to Post-Production out-side of the “BOX”…
Essentially, the extreme UPPER_End of Audio…
It appears that he has difficulty dealing with any Audio below that level…
As a result, we had a “Falling-Out” of Audio Communications…
I don’ hear from him anymore… I have no idea where he is with his position toward any kind of audio…
The last I heard from him he had expanded his studio into a huge number of Cubic Feet and acoustic improvements…
He may be correct in pursuing that route, but by going that direction he may be limiting potential business… , economically…
Who Knows ?
Hi duffman:
My steel guitar
life long friend (who is not with us anymore) used a Yamaha MD 8 in his setup…
He produced some pretty nice tracks …
I stand corrected…
Does the MD8 system allow the transfer of tracks in the Digital Domain ?
OR is conversion from D-to-A and then from A-to-D again, a necessary step.
If I remember, the tracks I got from Leonard came to me on a CD had that process…
Hi Diogenes:
You are correct…
It’s hard to
whip Microsoft for it’s progress…
I just say that Microsoft has it’s own Agenda as to it’s economic progress…
It seems that Microsoft doesn’t promise anything to it users, no-matter what it’s operating systems are used for…
or…
including MacIntosh…
for that matter. Eventually, I can envision a merger between Microsoft and MacIntosh
leaving a huge monopoly… in the world of Operating Systems…
Hi g8torcliff:
I buy a couple of tickets every week… with hopes of winning one of those big piles of dough…
Wouldn’t that be nice…
Then …
I check my numbers only to find I’ve lost…
Again…
Somehow, I am thinking that the Lotto Bunch don’t know it’s me buying those tickets…
OR …
they’d be calling me to tell me to tell me… I won…
and to come by to pick up my money before they burn it…
or something…
You know…
if I won the pot…
I’d probably give it away…
They say money can only get you into trouble… So…
Some Say…
Bill…
Mornin Bill,
The MD8 is analog only. It does have 8 direct track sends, pre fader and eq. There is a bunch of routing options in the thing, all on the back. I hate reaching behind it so I built rack mount I/O panels for it. My A-D/D-A was an Echo Darla, now a Delta 1010.
I like to lay down ideas, and build on them with the MD8. Into the computer for spit, polish, burning.
Duff
Quote: (woxnerw @ Feb. 03 2008, 8:54 AM)
They say money can only get you into trouble.....
I would love to get into some trouble.....can someone give me the winning numbers....please....
Back on topic…
I just bought my first condenser mic and it is so nice…now the old RS dynamic I have been using has to go into storage…I guess that is just the price of progress…
cliff
Hi duffman:
Thanks for that post…,
Before Leonard left us he worked creating material as much as his health would allow him…
He used his MD 8 for tracking-and-editing…
The track/editing…
I believe was done in the long method using What-He-Heard while transferring the mix he created in the analogue domain and On-the-Fly while transferring the analogue signal to a computer A-D setup… He had a set of ears on him that
any mixer-man would give his knees for…
I was tough on him as his days left him…
Somehow I feel that the negative motivation I gave him on that aspect of his music kept him here longer than he should have…
I tried my best to get him into n-Track and Editing-and-Mixing In-the-Box…
However, he wouldn’t go there…
Too Bad for us…
He created some nice Two-Track Mixes
and End-Product…
with his MD 8 Setup…
HIS widow wants me to teach her how to operate his setup so she can continue his work on the tracks that are not edited-and-mixed…
Some of us can teach and some of us can’t…
I think I fall into the bunch that can’t… But…
I know there are some tracks on those Disks that I’d give my Leo Fender P-Bass to get…
Maybe…
I’d like to check to see what he was doing…
at the end…
Bill…
[EDIT]
I wish I could get some of my misplaced creativity back again…
BUT.
I believe I’d have to replace my computer set-ups and get into some newer Audio Hardware…
My numbers were wrong again…
I didn’t get a call from the Lottery People this morning…
Again…
I’m sure they know who I am…
[EDIT 2]
Don’t forget where you put that RS Mic… You’ll discover how good that RS Mic was for you-and-your setup, in another week-or-so…