Posted from another forum

How do you counter-act this? I’m sure it’s inaccurate but I’m not an expert on Islam.


However, would you expect even such a curse to cause any improvement in an ill-bred dog? Of course you will not be so foolish. The problem with Osama bin Laden is that he has had terrorism bred into him by 14 centuries of a vicious religion called Islam. He cannot help what he is. He cannot be improved by example or admonition. He can only be put

It is a misnomer to describe Islam as a religion, as I do above merely for the sake of conformity to contemporary usage. Bertrand Russell, no friend of libertarians, and a man with a close firsthand experience of the Russian totalitarian system as an honored guest of Stalin himself, classed as religions Christianity, Buddism, and so on. He classed as political ideologies Communism and Islamism.

Even a cursory reading of the Koran will convince you Russell was right. That he remains right is indicated by the fact that every Muslim authority in the world agrees that the time for interpreting the Koran (and associated records, which have almost equal value) passed many centuries ago. In other words, Sharia (Muslim religious and secular law) is set in stone forever. Any Muslim who tells you there is a moderate Islam is either politically correct (i.e. stupid or easily deluded or both) or a very bad Muslim who will be punished by his
co-religionists as soon as they think they can get away with it.

There are no Muslim fanatics. Bin Laden does precisely what his mainstream religion tells him to do. There is no attempt from the “moderate” Muslims to argue with the precepts of his jihad, because to do so would be to betray their religion. Muslim preachers everywhere, in the cities of the West no less than in Teheran, preach jihad against the West. Their congregations of “moderate” Muslims do nothing about it.

The key idea of Mohammedanism is that there is the faithful and the dead. A Muslim is tasked as a duty by his faith to give you, and everyone else, three choices. They are conversion to Islam, death or subjugation. There are no alternatives. According to an Iraqi mullah described by your own State Department as “a moderate”, in a list of dirty things you, all of us unbelievers, rank eight, below pig urine
but two above the sweat of your coonhounds. Subjugation means that the non-Muslim are tolerated if they pay higher taxes than Muslims and bear multiple other humiliations; that is why the dhimmi as these underclasses are called, are so small in Muslim lands. Islam is a “faith” that has historically spread only by conquest and force. (Contrast the spread of all other faiths that preach love rather than hatred: they spread by conviction.)

Therefore Islam is a political system. I can multiply the examples, and the parallels with communist totalitarianism. But to an intelligent audience, a single telling example will suffice: Christians are admonished to treat the stranger as they would be treated themselves. Communists are admonished to prefer the nash, who are totalitarian
U-folk, to the non-nash. Islam goes further. The Koran instructs the faithful to have no friends or helpers from the unbelievers except deceitfully to further the cause of Islam.

A lot of our conceptual and legal problems with the terrorists will disappear if we start countering their strategies rather than their tactics, in some cases merely their tools. But the confirmation hearing of Dr Rice, a golden opportunity to clarify muddy Administration thinking, never even touched on this subject, strengthening the suspicion among thinking people that all Democrats are stupid and that Republicans with brains go into business rather than into public service. (It is pretty obvious that the smarts in the present Administration belong to those with substantial careers elsewhere before they were called to serve rather than to the career pols. But Congress each term gets more and more stuffed with careerists.)

The Muslim strategy is written out in full in the Koran, just like
Hitler’s strategy was written out in full in Mein Kampf.

Osama bin Laden is not a fanatic, he is within his “religion” not an extremist, he has substantial support even among American Muslims–because he is doing what his holy books tell him to do. Leaders of the Muslim community in America before 9/11 used to say openly that they would like to replace the Constitution by Sharia Law. That’s like Stalin saying that of course the Poles could vote, as long
as they voted for him, and that single vote was the last vote ever.

Sharia would make every American who didn’t convert a humiliated member of an underclass whose word would be worth only a quarter of a Muslim’s word in court, who can be struck with impunity by a Muslim, who will pay higher taxes than Muslims – and in your case, Willie, since you have a beard, will be ritually pulled forward by the beard by the tax
collector and slapped on both cheeks to emphasize that you should be grateful that higher taxes permit you to remain alive.

A good start on countering terrorist strategy rather than mere tactics can be made by declaring Islam a political system and subjecting it to all the normal laws and tests of a political party. Muslims who wish to live in a country should be required to declare that they will obey the laws of the country above all others. (Instead Mr Blair, the British Prime Minister, for political advantage, tried to give Muslims
special rights; in America there are a number of documented cases of the FBI and other authorities declaring murders clearly inspired by Muslim jihad theology to be something else (“road rage” in one case in which a Muslim killed a bunch of Jewish students) for fear of public reaction to Muslims in the community. In the State of Victoria in Australia Muslims are protected species to the extent that correctly quoting verses from the Koran can get anyone else fined or jailed; in other words it has become an offence in law to discuss the fabric of
the philosophy. As both an Irishman and an Australian, I am ashamed to say that the judge who perpetrated this stupidity is called Michael Higgins.)

In foreign parts the war on terrorism can best be fought right there in NY by cleaning up the hypocrisy at the United Nations. For a start, the Western democracies can announce that they will not give any financial or technical aid or diplomatic services to Muslim nations until the non-Muslims in their countries (the dhimmi described above) enjoy the
same rights, privileges and protections as Muslim citizens. (The Muslims have met twice in the last quarter-century to draw up their own Declaration of Human Rights. It essentially gives Muslims the right to discriminate against everyone else. It does not forbid Muslims to kill anyone else.)

It’s a simple test with truly tremendous consequences because it goes to the root of Muslim belief. Sharia law, a theocratic dictatorship, is fundamentally incompatible with democracy. It declared war on all other values in 622 and hasn’t changed course since. It is an enemy of democracy and decency and humanity in exactly the same way communism was – and should be eradicated the same way, with guns and butter, the carrot and the stick, and simple straightforward righteousness. Also, we Westerners are a lot smarter than Muslims, because centuries of repression must eventually have an effect, because the Christian heritage delivers a mode of free thought which the repressive Muslim
heritage does not. The key here is that Allah is so all-powerful that mere goodness will constrain his power, and thus he is unpredictable; whereas the Christian God is good, and therefore consistent and predictable. This difference in outlook has huge implications for the resulting societies and their attitudes to art, science and commerce; over a few centuries the difference compounds into the difference
between civilization and the barbarities of Saudi Arabia and Iran.

In the final analysis, what Osama bin Laden fights for is to bring back the Khalifa, the caliphate, the single Muslim authority abolished by Kemal Ataturk in the 1920s as a necessary precondition to bringing democracy and decent values to Turkey. The key value of the caliphate is that it unites all Muslims into a force that can subjugate and
conquer the world for Allah. Your curse will not deter bin Laden from a duty in which, according to the huge majority of his religious authorities, every fellow religionist must support him, and in which we know from polls he has the majority of Muslims worldwide behind him.

There is no reason for Muslim hatred of America, of the West, of Democracy, of anyone who isn’t like them. The only reason is that the others don’t believe in Allah, and should therefore be killed or enslaved. To them it is a rational reason. Any old politically correct reason will do for a cover, with the benefit that PC whores everywhere will lie back and open their legs to be raped.

“I like knowing my enemies, so I read Mein Kampf, Das Kapital and the Koran,” I said in a speech to the Union, 965, “Liberty is indivisible”, delivered to constant heckling by the same people who, having wasted forty years on the chimera of multiculturalism, are now screeching that the government should stop all immigration… Now I find myself politically to the left of the jeerers and sneerers who didn’t do their homework by reading the key texts. God certainly works
in strange ways. Why, m’lord, your curse might even bring bin Laden to the path of mercy and righteousness. Of course, he will first have to forswear Islam, because it is a religion without mercy and withouy righteousness even to its own, never mind to the rest of us.

Verses from the Koran to prove all my points on request. Someone is bound to be thick enough and politically correct enough to try and argue even with a guy who has done his homework.

Why bother with such studied ignorance?


You didn’t know you could save the world through forums?


Why bother with such studied ignorance?

Unfortunately, this ignorance is mainstream.

No, I think the garden variety of ignorance is mainstream - this is studied ignorance. :)


No, this isn’t ignorance, it’s deliberate.
You don’t have to be an expert on Islam to recognise the fact. Just read the book.
Anyway, the writer describes himself as an Irish Australian… need I say more?


Gee… Sounds like this person has a well reasoned argument. I don’t agree with all of it, but it’s not the rantings of a lunatic.

Some of you are calling it ignorance. Can you please be more specific?

Do you disagree that Islam could be thought of as a political ideology? If so, why?

Don’t some of the ‘politically correct’ axioms of liberalism seem as much a religious belief as a political one?

MichaelST has asked valid questions (that I cannot answer). I posted this here to get some discussion because I knew some people could offer their insight. Please do.


michael, a well reasoned argument is one supported by facts, traceable and verifiable.
This person merely expounds his opinion.
Anyone who has read the documents quoted by him will not agree with his conclusions.
I urge you to read the documents and talk to followers of as many religions as you can.
Knowledge is power. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is King.


oooh, MichaelST, I promised myself I would only engage in a bit of name calling and generalizations about the arguments.

Well, start with the false dichotomy: religion vs. political ideology. Islam, like Christianity, Judaism, and every other religious worldview, is a totalizing worldview. Of course Islam is political ideology. So is the myth of American democracy (and I use myth in the anthropolgist’s sense of culturally defining narrative" and not to imply that it is false or true). What you have in the piece there is an implicit judgment about the validity of the worldviews, Russell not withstanding.

But there is no single totalizing worldview that can be called “Islam” just as there is no single totalizing worldview that can be called “Christianity” or “constitutional democracy.” There are various processes in the on-going tradition called “Islam,” and they read the Qur’an and the Sunnah in their own ways (you know the Sunnah, the other main source of Islamic law, one that our friend perhaps does not know about, shows you what he knows about Islam, sort of like judging Christianity on the basis of the OT alone, or Judaism on the Tanakh alone without reference to the Mishnah).

So reading the Qur’an as he did is a pointless exercise used in the case only to justify his reading of the text; it ain’t grounded in reality. That is OK, though, since even intelligent westerners like yourself don’t know enough about Islam to be able to identify crap when you see it.

I could go on, but just think about this: his comaprison to Mein Kampf is sort of like comparing that text to the Christian OT. Remember all that OT stuff about bashing out babies brains on the rocks? About God demanding that they make sure that all 50000 prisoners were indeed executed? Yep, those Christians and Jews sure wrote out their strategy just like Hitler did. Good god.

Nope, the guy is a fool and a tool, and I am increasingly angry with the general ignorance that seems to be the norm when discussing these matters. There is no simple story here, it is not the religion that is the problem, and it only serves the needs of war profiteers to buy into this crap.

If you want a longer answer you will first need to take a decent class on Islam. Go to your local community college (or whatever) and sign up.


I have to add this: “there is no reason for Muslim hatred of American…” the author claims towards the end. First, let’s not confuse a small group of terrorists with the vast mass of Muslims. Second, just look at the history of Israel - both sides have dirty hands, and it may look very much the same to both sides, that they are the ones defending the homeland from aggressive colonial powers. Arabic people were treated to terroist attacks by Jews in the process, just as they themselves were the targets of terrorism. All participants are at fault, but the point is that the conflict has sooooo little to do with religion and soooo much to do with politics, power, wealth and poverty, that it is just stupid to say that it is a religious matter.

-No, is Al Paca…

Ba dum bump…

Quote (Bubbagump @ Sep. 14 2005,14:01)
-No, is Al Paca....

Ba dum bump.....

Do it quack like a duck?


now, why, Bubba, have i never heard that one before? :D :D :D :D :D

I just made it up… that’s why. :D Put a good southern twang on Islam (like the A in ham rather than the A such as in Brahms) and it is even better.

TG, let’s put it this way, I don’t know how well alpaca would go into a pita with tzitziki.

That scrawny lookin’ thang don’t look like it would taste good no matter what you put it in or on or… ???

Never heard of Alpaca until today… will wonders ever cease?


In Ohio alpaca farming is big biz. They use them for wool. I know becuase my dad runs the Ohio State Vet hospital and they have on of the world experts on alpacas on staff there…

Cool. I suppose they do well with the chilly winters up there? Probably too hot down heah in da’ souf fer ‘em. Ya’ reckin? :D

There used be a mad rash of Emu farming down here but they found out them SOB’s were HARD to deal with… mostly your normal “garden variety” farming goes on around here now. Beef, a little dairy, BUTTLOADS o’ chicken, pork, goats, etc… No Alpaca though…


Well, alpaca is the get-rich-quick craze of the 00s. I have yet to see any alpaca products in a store. But they sell and breed those ugly little boogers for stupid money.