Converting to wav Files
Hi Today Gents:
I’m working in the Studio, refining the repro setup, testing the audio lines and getting used to what to expect from the Hardware and Software, and All…
It’s tough to get into the creative mode if glitches are discovered while tracking… so there are benefits gained from knowing what to expect from the repro setup when I finally get to the Tracking Session Time…
I have this series of mp3 files that I converted to .wav files to see how the process of importing them into the n-Track timeline works…
I know that n-Track converts mp3 files on-the-fly and that process works rather well…
However, I have a few other Audio File Converter applications that I use, to up-convert mp3 files to .wav format…
They work in either of the operating systems that I use…
Vista or XP…
Anyway, after converting a batch of mp3 files with one app. I opened them using Windows Media Player v11, on the XP Operating Machine, to discover that a Pop-up screen appeared, saying that Windows XP needs a codec that is not installed, and it was unable to play the file…
The bells rang and I went looking for a missing codec, only to find I am unable to find the codec… (and Windows doesn’t list-or-know)
SO… I took the wav file and opened the file and opened it using the Vista machine using Windows Media Player v11 and the file opened-and-played just fine…
SO…
then, I opened the file using n-Track, latest version-and-build using the Vista Studio machine only to find that the file could not be opened-and-played correctly in n-Track…
The .npk file that was created, filled the whole timeline…
I then, went through the whole combinations using both Vista and XP machines to check-and-see what issues were raised trying to play this file…
I discovered that this up-converted file worked the same in both machines when played using n-Track…
NO-GO…
The only thing I could find was, this wav file worked using Vista in Windows Media Player…
Then, I set out to up-convert this mp3 file using another third party converter…
I discovered that this up-converted wav file (which is half the file size)
plays in both operating systems and in both n-Track and Windows Media Player…
I did a “Properties” on these two up-converted wav files BUT nothing shows up that I recognize, only that the only difference between the files is, the higher bite count file does not behave correctly…
What could the issue be that is causing this and should I be even concerned with this 
?
Bill…
What’s the data in the headers of both files? I’ve seen trouble with many files when apps assume incorrect format based on just a few header items. They assume a total header size of 44 bytes and start reading the ‘wavedata’ after that. That’s more than a bad idea.
There are formats that differ only in a few small ways that can be all too easily mistaken.
PCMFORMAT == 16 bytes
WAVEFORMAT == 16 bytes
WAVEFORMATEX == 18 bytes
WAVEFORMATEXTENSIBALE == 40 bytes
All four can be easily mistaken because the first 16 bytes can be identical, though don’t have to be.
Take a look at this:
http://www-mmsp.ece.mcgill.ca/documents/audioformats/wave/wave.html
This page lists WAVEFORMATEX as non-pcm, but that’s not always the case. The reason being that WAVEFORMATEX doesn’t have to be PCM. More than likely it is.
AudioFormat through BitsPerSample are the REAL format parts. This is the part that can be any size. An app that skips over reading the Subchunk 1 Size will barf.
FYI: SoundForge 10 is much buggier in this department than SoundForge 9 was. Adobe Audition goes it right, but doesn’t support as many formats. This could be because SF blindly attempts to open formats it doesn’t really handle.
FYI2: Apps that assume a 44 byte total header when the file isn’t may seem to play fine. The way to tell is if there is a tiny bit of garbage at the beginning of the wave data.
FYI3: Another way to tell is to open a WAVEFORMAT file in an RIFF reader that shows the header as WAVEFOREMATEX by default. The cbSize will not be zero, or some other more normal expected size, like 22. It will show as 35768 or something like that.
Hi phoo:
Thanks for the nice reply… 
That is beautiful reading…
It could take me a week to absorb it’s contents…
At first thought, I don’t think it’s an n-Track issue as much as it could be the application that converts the file…
I’d like to post the files to see if another machine(s) handles these files the same way as they do here…
I’d like to…
also try to discover how n-Track handles the up-conversion process and attempt to play the rendered file…
Here, I’m gonna name the two file converters that I used, to date to up-convert this file…
The application that miss-handles the conversion on this setup, is called…
AVS Audio Converter6 (latest version-and-build)…
I have it installed on three machines…
Two Vista setups and one XP machine…
The application that handles the file correctly on this setup (between all machines here) is called Super Audio Converter (latest-version-and-build)… These applications are installed on all the machines on my setup…
The .npk file that is created by n-Track all have the same bite count…
The bite count on the wav files are different sizes…
This is a conundrum to me…
There might be an easy answer to this issue…
Who Knows ?
I’d like to stick with this issue to see if there’s a FIX for what is going-on…
At the moment, I don’t understand…
I’d like to, though…
Bill…
Hi Bill. Like you, I’m giving Phoo’s post a good going over.
Meanwhile, try Switch. I’ve used it for loads of conversions that have ended-up in n-Track and have had to use it to re-convert so called converted files from Audacity to import into n-T.
http://www.softpedia.com/get…h.shtml
Hi TonyR and All:
I installed the complete bundle… The price was O.K. at the time… I think it was 59.99 or something…
I have yet to explore all the software that is in there…
Somehow-or-other I believe that the AVS Audio player will play the converted files…
BUT…
I have yet to explore all those possibilities…
What I’d like to do, if I can get busy at it, is, find the time to play with this issue…
I’d like to upload the files to a place where anyone who is interested in this so they can see if the issues can be repeated with their setups…
There’s likely an answer to this…
or a workaround that might explain it all…
The next post/reply to this thread, I’ll gather up all the information and post some file specs including bite count and then fine a place to post them…
and provide links and all…
I was really surprised to find this issue raised it’s head…
I know, it’s not a wise practice to up-convert compressed files
…
BUT…
one has to-do, what one has to-do…
Bill…
p.s. I had a peek at the link you posted… I’ll download the “Switch” and see how it handles the task… Thanks… TonyR… I might even have an older version/build in my documents from way-back-when…
The size of the converted wave file that works is 29,768 kbs. It was converted with Super Audio Converter latest version/build…
It plays on all operating systems and with any player… The n-Track .npk file is 239 kb, in size.
The file that doesn’t play in all instances is 59,527 kbs. The n-Track .npk file is 239 kbs. in size…
the mp2 files that was used to up-convert to wav. files was 3,402 kbs. in size.
I’m looking for a storage space to upload the files …to…
Bill…
I went through my free storage sites looking for a page that will host these files I have so I can provide links to them…
I am unable to find one that works, across the board…
Some doesn’t allow .wav files, while others don’t allow files beyond a certain size…
Others wouldn’t allow a folder with files contained with-in…
Anyway, I’m still on the search…
Bill…
Have you tried Adrive?
I don’t know if they allow wav. or not, but I think the limit is 2G per file.
keep shinin
jerm 
Hi jeremysdemo:
Thanks…
I think I have ID and password to that page…
Bill…
p.s. I’m IN…
Hi Gents:
The files are on their way up to the A Drive Page…
I’ll post a link to them as soon as they get there…
That’s for anyone interested in checking this issue out…
There are five files in the folder…
The first one is the mp3 file that all the rest are derived from…
The first wave file is the so called “GOOD” file or…
the one that gives no issue, (some 29 meg. in size)…
The next file is the wave file that only plays with the Windows media Player v11 on the Vista machine and doesn’t play in n-Track on any machine,(some 59 meg. in size)… The .npk file covers the whole timeline…
Just a huge BAR…
The next two files are the .npk files… (the first npk file is the good one and the second npk file is the BAD one)…
I hope you can try these files out on your setups…
I hope they are able to be repeated…
Thanks for all your efforts…
I’d like to try and understand why these wave files behave the way they do…
Bill…
Hi Gents Again:
I have those files uploaded…
There was an issue with the file names…
It took a while to get the files re-named…
Anyway, Here’s the link
I’ll check to see if the link is O.K.
You’ll check it before I can…
Bill…
[EDIT] Hey… it works…
http://www.adrive.com/public…97.html
http://www.adrive.com/public…60.html
http://www.adrive.com/public…68.html
http://www.adrive.com/public…00.html
http://www.adrive.com/public…b2.html
I found the way to post the links…
I think these ones should work…
Bill…
The large NG file is 32 bit INT, 44.1k PCM format. It opens and plays fine in Adobe Audition, SoundForge 9 and SoundForge 10. It does not import and play in n-Tracks. I get the same results as you. I need to investigate this at work – better tools than I have at home. AA and SF both will fix things sometimes when files are opened, so that doesn’t get the file out of the woods yet. There may be nothing wrong with the file, of course, and this could be an n-Track limitation or bug, especially since n-Track has a few selections to adjust formats.
Also, that file may be a 24 bit format in a 32 bit container (only 24 of 32 bits are valid audio data – but which 24 bits, and what endian is the file?). Those files will usually play just fine as a 32 bit file, but not always. Endian difference is the main difference between Mac and PC wave data – it’s the way data is handled in memory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness
Getting this wrong will do exactly what we see in n-Tracks, but so can a few other things.
Thanks phoo, for taking some of your valuable time and effort to investigate this…
I wonder if many guys like us who hang around Audio Forums and Message Boards are aware of the importance of the differences and cross platforms in WAVE files ?
Having said that…
I don’t know if it’s in the right context… I would have naturally thought that the wav file with the higher bite count would be the correct choice of file selection to select-and-use…
It goes without saying… Understanding a file’s roots is a good attribute to be aware of-and-know…
whatever that extension is, for that matter…
audio video or photography…
I wonder if anywhere in the Wikipedia that reference is made to this issue ?
OR…
should it be ?
Bill…
Sorry it took so long.
Now I can get back to the real work…
There’s nothing wrong with any of those files. The file that n-Tracks doesn’t handle well is a normal 32bit INT Stereo PCM file, and Little-Endian (Intel). And, it’s 8 byte BlockAligned. That’s all normal.
A down side, is that there are only 16 valid bits of the 32 used. That makes no difference as for format, but it means it is exactly the same quality as a 16 bit file. In this case there’s no advantage storing the file as 32 bits. Of course, as soon as it’s processed as 32 bits that will change.
There seems to be a bug in n-Tracks with that particular format.
wFormatTag = 1
nChannels = 2
nSamplesPerSec = 44100
nAvgBytesPerSec = 352800
nBlockAlign = 8
wBitPerSample = 32
cbSize = 0
The original 16 bit uncompressed file is WAVEFORMAT
(not WAVEFORMATEX) the cbSize shows as 34232. This is normal when reading WAVEFORMAT and assuming it to be WAVEFOREMATEX. Nothing to care about at all in this case.
All other aspects of the files are correct. The 32 bit file has LIST::INFO, DISP and a small fact chunk, but those are only for holding non-audio song data. All is good there…unless…
The fact chunk is physically between the format and audio data chunks. Any app that assumes to wave data to start immediately after the format might get in trouble with this file. I don’t think that’s something n-Tracks would be doing.
Hi phoo:
Thank you again for the reply, on this matter…
Super Audio Converter …
appears to be the converter that I’ll use for now, to up-convert mp3 files…
That is, if I don’t have n-Track opened to do the task…
It’s fascinating, to say the least, that a WAVE file, for all intent, is not, in fact a WAVE file…
Well, something like that…
AND…
That some of these players-and-editors will handle some WAVE file while another player doesn’t recognize all WAVE files…
Bill…
I’ve always used realplayer to convert mp3 back to WAV, but then again I’m using a much older version of n-track, and I’m given to understand the newer versions will import mp3…
Hi dannyraymilligan:
Flavio has progressed a long way with n-Track, in the later builds…
This has become a really nice multi-track editor… Believe-It-or-Not…
That my opinion… It might do your soul good to get on the New Page…
That’s just me talkin…
However, I use it in a very limited way, of course…
MIDI and I don’t get along very well, I don’t know what’s the matter with her…
I put my right foot out and she steps on it…
Somehow-or-other I stumbled upon an Audio File Converter Called “Super Audio Converter” about 7-8 years ago… As I am aware, it was written by someone over in the Far East… I believe…
I’ve used other converters, but, somehow I bought this AVS bundle of applications and I wanted to try it/give it a spin…
and that’s what set this topic off-and-running, for me…
I guess when you find something works, one shouldn’t want to diddle with it…
Bill…
[EDIT]… I forgot to add… phoo is one of the most cleverest computer guys I happen to know up here in cyberspace… AND he is quite a fine Drummer, as well…