Kerry won the debate

Hands down…

When old Joe Scarbough & FOX News spin ministers say it, it must be true.

I just hope that the American people (and the world) watched this debate & they saw Kerry like he was tonight - strong & determined.

Bump

MIke, are you doing the Johannes Climaticus/ Anticlimaticus/Kierkegaard things with two names? ???

Yes - I MN at work & CC at home.

What did you think about the debate? Bush looked/sounded pretty weak. The R’s are spining it by saying he was tired & drained after meeting with disaster victims all day. That’s convenient!

I steer clear of discussions of the Presidential Campaign because as a Canadian I don’t think it’s proper to pass comment on another country’s political process (and I don’t recall too many Americans -other than Nader and Moore- trying to tell me who to vote for in our last federal election).

But I stumbled onto this link to a transcript of the Presidential debate and thought it might be of value to some here.

No opinions or judgements being expressed - just passing it along.

Presidential Debate Transcript

I steer clear of discussions of the Presidential Campaign because as a Canadian I don't think it's proper to pass comment on another country's political process
Please don't feel that way. You guys are in the same "boat" being so close to us.

Don’t misunderstand me, Mike. I have opinions on the subject. I just feel that it is more polite, as someone without a say in the election, to keep those opinions to myself. We Canadians tend to be very big on politeness - not universally, but generally.

Understood but it’s OK to express your opinions because they’re important. The US cannot & is not isolated anymore so every countries opinion matters IMO.

The US cannot & is not isolated anymore so every countries opinion matters IMO.

Lol. The rather general consensus over here is that the US can't see that there is a world outside their borders, IMO.
Lol. The rather general consensus over here is that the US can't see that there is a world outside their borders,
Willy - you're correct but that's only because of the current admin. If there's a change this fall, hopefully that will change.

No, that’s been the feeling (not just in Australia, AFAICT) for as long as I can remember.

It’s got nothing to do with the admin, although Bush is probably as ignorant of the outside world as any and hopefully not representative of the US public at large., even though they elected him :D

Blame the media and what they feed (any/all) population. I’ll give you a barely relevant example of what-causes-people-in-other-countries-to-groan-out-loud-in-cinemas from the movie “Independence Day”:

The RAF (the British Royal Air Force, for those who don’t know :D ) are hiding out somewhere in the saudi desert when morse code detailing the Alien weak spot comes through.
Brit No1: (surprised) It’s the Americans!
Brit No2: (eagerly) What do they want us to do?

Now, that’s a fairly poor example, but when you realise that the REST OF THE WORLD is being saturated with this sort of bullshit US culture to the point of a lack of national identity, and I can only imagine the sort of pro-US brainwashing going on back in your homeland (we have a saying here: When the US sneezes, Australia catches cold), then what hope does the general US population have of getting anything from outside?

It’s not Bush Jr’s fault - or even Bush Snr’s for that matter, it’s being going on for much longer, probably since the end of WWII, which would be when we stopped following the UK around so much and looked elsewhere. To blame Bush for everything is a little shortsighted, he hasn’t been in office that long as far as these things go.

For what it’s worth, I think Kerry looks like the most false person alive - his smile is about as sincere as that of a pathological liar.

Willy.

Thanks Willy, you said it !
I was gonna reply to this one but I thought I’d better wait you out :)
I just read today that the USA is responsible for 1/3 of the globe’s total economy.
Makes you wonder how much of this 3’rd is being spent on marketing, hyping all kinds of insane crap, be it products or views.
Scary sh!t !

OK - I agree with that but I was talking more about current events like Iraq when I made that statement.

For sure, the USA is a “newer” imperial power who exerts it’s influence around the world in whatever way best achieves it’s interests. It’s done that for many years.

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For what it’s worth, I think Kerry looks like the most false person alive - his smile is about as sincere as that of a pathological liar.

I disagree with that. It’s the pics you’ve seen in the press that lead you to that conclusion. Kerry’s actually quite handsome & was once sort of a lady’s man. Check out these pics -Kerry Scrapbook.

And what about Bush’s little smurk. Do you think that’s the smile of a sincere/honest person? Seriously.
Kerry's actually quite handsome & was once sort of a lady's man.

He doesn't do it for me, sorry. Don't find him attractive at all. Anyway, looking at those old photos, it looks to me like he's had his teeth fixed at some stage, his smile now just seems to big, out there, and imo, fixed.

Look at the mishapen dwarf monkeys we use for national leaders. Real men dammit. No one can say we vote for the best looking ones.

I still think that if you had Joe Blow the Carpenter running for President, you'd be ranting about him Toker, because you've got no other options. And really, neither of what you do have is an option.

You can't call Bush's smile sincere. It's the smile of a man who has no real idea what he's doing.

Willy.
You can't call Bush's smile sincere. It's the smile of a man who has no real idea what he's doing.
Now we actually agree on something!

Yeah - I think Kerry looks like Herman Munster too.

Hey, the only Prime Minister in Canadian History to win three straight majorities (Jean Chretien) was an ugly little git who talked out of the side of his mouth (literally, due to Bell’s Palsy) and the only Canadian Prime Minister I think you could safely describe as “handsome” (John Turner) didn’t last three months in the job.

In Canada, we seem to vote against the pretty boy (and that includes Kim Campbell!)

Oooh… I’m gonna regret this, but here:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/dennisprager/dp20041005.shtml


How Kerry won
Dennis Prager
October 5, 2004

This column, which could be titled, “Whatever your position on Iraq, John Kerry is your man,” is dedicated to Sean, a listener who called my radio show the day after the presidential debate. He enabled me to understand why most people believe John Kerry won the debate.

Sean explained that he was an opponent of the war in Iraq and only now could he finally vote for John Kerry. I asked him what Kerry said that confirmed that the Democratic candidate was his man.

Sean: “I believe he has a plan.” (Kerry said he has a plan some 12 times.)

Prager: “A plan to do what?”

Sean: “A plan to withdraw our troops.”

And then I understood. No matter what position you hold about American foreign policy and the war in Iraq, John Kerry holds your position.

Sen. Kerry accomplished this so subtly that recognition of it had eluded me.

Voters who want America to leave Iraq and voters who want to stay there and win – both heard Kerry say exactly what they wanted to hear.

Voters who want America to act alone in the world when the world disagrees with us and voters who want America to proceed only when we have the international backing and an alliance with others – both heard Kerry say exactly what they wanted to hear.

Voters who believe the war was a colossal mistake and voters who believe that our soldiers in Iraq are fighting for a noble cause – both heard John Kerry say exactly what they wanted to hear.

Voters who want to believe that John Kerry has almost magic-like plans – to get more allies, to leave the war, to win the war, to end the North Korean and Iranian nuclear threats – heard John Kerry say exactly what they wanted to hear.

Even voters who share Michael Moore’s conspiratorial theories about the war and the Bush presidency heard what they wanted (in Kerry’s reference to Haliburton).

Regarding the war and foreign policy, there is no segment of America that John Kerry did not appeal to.

Here are direct quotes from John Kerry in the debate.

On staying in Iraq:

“I’m not talking about leaving. I’m talking about winning.”

“Yes, we have to be steadfast and resolved, and I am. And I will succeed for those troops, now that we’re there. We have to succeed. We can’t leave a failed Iraq.”

On leaving Iraq:

“And our goal in my administration would be to get all of the troops out of there …”

“I believe that when you know something’s going wrong, you make it right. That’s what I learned in Vietnam.”

What was it that John Kerry “learned in Vietnam?” To leave a war he regarded as a mistake.

On America acting alone:

“I’ll never give a veto to any country over our security.”

On America acting only with world support or within an alliance:

“But if and when you do it (act alone), Jim, you have to do it in a way that passes the test, that passes the global test …”

And what if acting alone does not pass “the global test”? Then presumably we won’t act alone. Kerry made references to the need to be in Iraq in alliance with other nations eight times.

On the war being a mistake:

“This president has made, I regret to say, a colossal error of judgment.”

“The president made a mistake in invading Iraq.”

“The war is a mistake.”

On the war being important enough to have to win:

“I believe that we have to win this. The president and I have always agreed on that.”

After hearing Kerry call the war a mistake, the moderator Jim Lehrer asked the logical question: "Are Americans now dying in Iraq for a mistake?

John Kerry’s answer: “No, and they don’t have to, providing we have the leadership that I’m offering.”

Now what does that response, arguably the most important thing the senator said in the debate, mean? Does it mean that American soldiers won’t die for what John Kerry continually labels a mistake because he will prosecute the war more effectively? Or does it mean that Americans won’t die for this mistaken war because he will leave Iraq and then there will be no mistake to die for?

The answer, again, is that it can mean either.

I believe that this debate can lead to only one conclusion: Either John Kerry is a man of few principles who will say almost anything on the most vital issues of life and death in order to get elected; or he is personally so confused on this issue that he will repeatedly make self-contradictory statements.

There is no other explanation for this unassailable fact: John Kerry won the debate because he sounded better; and he sounded better in large measure because he got away with saying whatever any voter wanted to hear.

That is one reason President Bush looked so annoyed at times. It is very hard for the principled to listen to the unprincipled.

You should not regret it Pete. It was all televised the other night for all to hear IF they cared to listen closely enough.

TG

Debating is hard work.

I can’t believe I posted on this silly thread.

I dunno, I though the debate was pretty lack lustre on all sides. So many huge gaping holes left on both sides not exploited. Wat do you suppose the debate would be like if the candidates didn’t have handlers that gave them lists of approved talking points. I betcha there would be some spittin’ and cussin’. Yee haw!