MIDI bank/patch mapping

MIDI bank/patch mapping

I’m trying out n-Track for the first time and I am trying to setup patches for MIDI tracks. I can’t figure out how to make the correct banks/patches to show up for a MIDI instrument. For example, I’m trying to set SC-88 on channel 2 of my MIDI interface. I am expecting to see all of the SC-88 patches/banks show up, but I just keep seeing XG something, or General MIDI. I’ve tried fiddling with the MIDI instrument definitions, but I am completely lost. Here’s basically what I did:

1. In track properties click Instruments and make sure that channel 2 on my interface is set to SC-88. (Even trying channel 10 -> SC-88 drumsets.)

2. Click on the button below the Program combo - there’s General MIDI, Program Names, and XG selections - nothing about SC-88.

In banks_default.txt I can see all of the SC-88 variations listed, but I don’t see this ever appear in the UI. If I try to use General MIDI just to select the program and then change the bank field, it forces my program names to change to another set.

The MIDI instruments definition window and documentation has me completely in the dark. I can see that is where the XG stuff is coming from. But it doesn’t seem to relate to banks_default.txt in any way.

Hi. From ‘step two’ is your interface?

When I click that button I get a window that says “Program names”. In that window is a combobox labeled “Programs names set:”. When I drop that combobox down I see:

Program Numbers
General MIDI
General MIDI + numbers
XG Bank 0
XG Bank 1 (KSP)

- Yen

I’ll go fire up my music machine and try to catch you up…

I made something happen, although I didn’t know what I was doing. On that MIDI instrument defintion page I imported banks_default.txt. Now the
“Programs names” page shows all of the sets and I can select SC-88 - although when I do that it switches to XG bank again.

I discovered that incrementing/decrementing the “Bank:” parameter in the track properties makes those SC banks appear, and overrides the XG that appeared on the program button.

SC-88 drumsets still don’t work.

The MIDI program select feature here is very awkward and confusing. The “Bank:” control itself is kind of annoying since you can’t see what’s available - you have to scroll through all the values to see if what you want might be in there.

The best UI I’ve ever seen is a big 8x16 table that shows the names of all the patches in one bank all at one time, then above that are combos to select the device and bank, which cause the table view to change showing what patches are in that selected device/bank.

- Yen

right click on the time line (lg grey area) and choose to add a midi track.

right click on the midi track and choose ‘output to’.
keep surfing the next popup for vsti inst or new instr.
You should see your midi inst on the list, choose it.

Then open the ntrack mixer and you will see your inst name in a track window,
open that (right click and properties) will open it…
After you open your inst, you should see your banks
from within your midi inst.
Have a big chug of beer or something refreshing.
Around here we like to put rubbing alcohol in our ears on sat nights

drag your sample of choice onto the track.
:D
hope that helps

You should see your midi inst on the list, choose it.

I do not. I can see my MIDI interfaces. I can also see the various VST and DX instruments, but I don’t see any MIDI instruments.

- Yen

Sorry your having trouble yen. I run a midi inst for drums. And that is the exact way that I find my banks. If you have one installed you’ll find it under ‘new instrument’, vst, vsti, new inst. I don’t use any other midi and I’m pretty sure the one that comes with nTrack is called ‘dahornet’. And I believe dahornet can run different sounds that you found on the list from preferences.

I know nothing about running a midi interface and slaving it with keys but someone will, if that’s what your trying to do. It’s a little slow here on weekends, hang in there, I’m sure someone will come along who can help.
Good luck.

Mapping is a little tricky and I used the piano roll view to make a list and get a list of all the sounds associated with drums only sorry buddy.

Thanks for trying though!

I think it’s just broken. I tried deleting everything in the instrument defintion list, make my own test instrument, assign all midi channels to that instrument, and restart n-track between each step. n-Track never recognizes my new instrument in the track properties. When I look at my instrument defintions it remembers what I drag or add to the definition tree, but it forgets the name - so my banks of “x - Whatever” all turn to “x - Program numbers”, and my notes turn from “x - Whatever” to “x - Show Piano”.

Drat. I do mostly MIDI, so this would be a major sore.

I can see that a competitor is doing something very similar, but things seem to work correctly and are layed out a little bit better. The bank select is still a standalone control though - I don’t get that. What good is selecting a bank by itself? The bank is only half of the program change.

When I first started messing with a midi inst I also turned to the list provided through the preferences dialog box.
And felt the same frustrations that you are.
But found from others that right clicking on the midi track and ‘outputting to’, as I showed you brought my midi inst into play.
So I forgot that preferences list until now.
I remember how frustrating that was.
There are guys here that do a bunch of midi, they’ll get you going.
I appreciate the time and interest that you spent trying to figure that out.
If you write to Flavio he might make things a little easier for you.

But I do believe, that list is intended to give a user the option to immediately add instrument sounds to a song via the ‘hornet’, with out having to buy a midi inst.
Just a guess

:D
Sorry I couldn’t be more help.

How about the possibility of a plugin that does what I want? Is it possible to create a VST plugin that injects messages into the stream going to a hardware MIDI interface? I would automate the plugin to control my patches and provide my own program change UI.

I have the VST SDK, but this issue of MIDI output seems to not be very common. I tried the sample VST MIDI effect, but it doesn’t get loaded and I suspect not very many hosts support it (I can see that vstscan sees and loads the DLL, but it doesn’t do anything with it.)

- Yen

Quote: (Yendawg @ May 02 2010, 4:15 PM)

How about the possibility of a plugin that does what I want?
Is it possible to create a VST plugin that injects messages into the stream going to a hardware MIDI interface?
I would automate the plugin to control my patches and provide my own program change UI.

I have the VST SDK, but this issue of MIDI output seems to not be very common.
I tried the sample VST MIDI effect, but it doesn't get loaded and I suspect not very many hosts support it (I can see that vstscan sees and loads the DLL, but it doesn't do anything with it.)

- Yen

What do you mean by midi interface?

In your OP and the following post it appears you are talking about midi software and computer based synths.

If it is a hardware midi interface with modules you are trying to control I could tell you how to put the program changes for the them in the tracks, provided you gave me the name of the module and midi interface.

keep shinin

jerm :cool:

Hi. I’m scratchin’ me 'ead.

You can grab vst templates but you’ll need programing skills.

Summary: this started out as a simple question of how to set the MIDI program change for a track using a patch map for a device, software or otherwise.
The best thing I found is the track properties where you can select instrument, bank, and program.
After some discussion here I came to the conclusion that it isn’t quite working right 'cause I don’t see the SC-88 patches when I should; in addition I even find the method that should work quite awkward.
For me it is not reasonable to experiment with 100’s of patches by manually selecting a bank, program, and instrument mapping (not to mention define maps for my devices that don’t already have maps provided.)

It just so happens that I am using a real (hardware) MIDI interface and a real MIDI device (SoundCanvas SC-88 among others).

So, an idea came to me - if I can stick my own VST in there I could actually add my own program change events to the track, and provide my own UI that I actual find useful.
I read some VST SDK docs and it isn’t evident that this is possible unless you use a VST MIDI effects module, which I think is a new VST 3 thing and not widely implemented in VST hosts.

I am programmer, so the idea sounds fun on more than one level.

- Yen

I think I figured it out. I’ve gotta read the docs to all three SDKs to decipher this stuff. Let the experiments begin. :Q)

Quote: (Yendawg @ May 02 2010, 4:15 PM)

How about the possibility of a plugin that does what I want?
Is it possible to create a VST plugin that injects messages into the stream going to a hardware MIDI interface?
I would automate the plugin to control my patches and provide my own program change UI.

I have the VST SDK, but this issue of MIDI output seems to not be very common.
I tried the sample VST MIDI effect, but it doesn't get loaded and I suspect not very many hosts support it (I can see that vstscan sees and loads the DLL, but it doesn't do anything with it.)

- Yen

Yeah you have to manually load a vst onto a track via the mixer track window.
But with a midi track If you output from the track by right clicking and choose your midi instrument, it automatically loads
the inst.
You would see a blank midi clip in the track that nTrack lays in there and the midi inst would be visible in the tracks effects box via the mixer.

Hope you hit one out of the park with your experiment dawg!