Midi ignoramus

GNX4 help…:frowning:

Hi all,

As most of you know I am a midi ignoramus.
However, I am slowly dipping my feet into the midi pool…it was chilly at first but I got used to it! :angry:

Anywho.

Recently I bought this device called a GNX4.

I am told the device is able to play midi sequence’s that trigger various FX parameters during specific times within songs.

I understand the basics of how to make a midi track using the piano roll and the various instruments that came with Protracks plus 2.2 , Reason, and Sonar.
Within the GNX4 manual there is a list of CC#'s, which you can view here:
GNX4 forum

What is unknown to me, is how to create a midi file that will use these numbers to trigger these FX at various times instead of an “instrument” within the computer.
When I make a midi file in piano roll, it is unclear to me how to go about putting in CC numbers instead of an instrument.

As you may read in the GNX4 forum, a person has told me you can do this, but did not say how…

I was thinking perhaps someone here that has done midi parameters for other devices could give me the basic run down of how that is done and how that differs from making a track using a selected instrument.

From what I can tell the midi drums on the device are on channel 10.
and I also posted the midi implementation chart for the GNX4 in the other forum.
But I am not concerned with the drums, since I will be using MP3’s of both drums and bass as backing track.
The main concern right now is making the midi tracks that are going to command the device to change FX’s at specific times.

IF anyone understands a word of this, or has even the slightest inclination as to how one would go about making these midi files I would love to hear it!

keep shinin

jerm :cool:

Quote:

...and how that differs from making a track using a selected instrument

The only difference is that the track it played out to an external MIDI device instead of a VST.

The external devices are set to receive on any MIDI channel 1 to 16. The track is set to play that channel.

It really is as simple as that.
Quote: (phoo @ Apr. 22 2009, 10:05 AM)

Quote:

...and how that differs from making a track using a selected instrument

The only difference is that the track it played out to an external MIDI device instead of a VST.

The external devices are set to receive on any MIDI channel 1 to 16. The track is set to play that channel.

It really is as simple as that.

Yea I know that what everybody keeps telling me "it's as simple as that"

only problem is...I don't know what "that" is!

I do understand that the device is going to play the midi sequence and use the numbers to trigger various FX at different times instead of a VST playing it with an instrument....

What I don't understand is how to make the track, that is, if I want Flanger for instance and it's number is CC 18 how do I put CC18 into a track? using the piano roll? CC18 does not show up on any of my choices for instruments, or any other CC number for that matter.....if I new how to put these numbers into a track, I think I could attempt making one and sending it to the GNX4 memory card, then playing it while I strum the ole' banjo.
I also understand it will be sent on a specific or group of channels between 1-16 (except 10 since that is reserved for the onboard drum machine for this device)

I feel like I am at the edge of a breakthrough here, I am so close to jumping...I just have no idea where to jump to....

keep shinin

jerm :cool:

Most midi programs have some sort of event editor alongside the pianoroll. You can add a CC event there usually. Or there is usually a “type” selector in the piano roll for midi event to insert/edit. Will have things like “velocity” in it.

I was not able to find “CC” in SOnar or PROtracks…maybe just because I am not familiar with them…so I return to my old friend Ntrack to save me!

I notice when I open up piano roll…I see something that says “Controller”…is this the infamous CC? if so where is the other C? :p

Under that I see…numbers…from one to 127…

Does anyone think if I make a note (lets say a long one) and select a specific number here that will set the midi file to command the GNX4 to signal that FX for that given time?

OR I am completely lost here and CC#'s have to do with something else within these midi options?
And if so where do I access them?
Is there an icon? drop down box? slider? on the new midi track?

keep shinin

jerm :cool:

Hey Jerm,
Check this out:

http://thepiz.org/pizmidi/

There is a VST which will change a midi note to a CC number.

look for 'midiNotesToCC’

Maybe you can try using the plug in a midi file and assign Notes to the CC’s you need to do the effects changes in the GNX4

I’m gonna try that 7o11.

Mark I did not intentionally ignore your post, but did not see it before mine…in fact the last time I checked the thread I had two back to back post…now somehow you squeezed in there!

I see you identify “CC” as the area where velocity and such is in (inside NTracks) I know where that is…can’t seem to find it in Pr0tracks or SonarLE.

I am on my way tho guys! my days of pressing pedals while playing to change FX are coming to an end!

oh pedals…you will most certainly not be missed :disagree:

keep shinin

jerm :cool:

Quote:

I see something that says "Controller"....is this the infamous CC?


CC# stands for Continuous Controller Number. Yes, in MIDI they are the same.

Right click in the timeline (blank area)
--Add blank MIDI track
Right click in the new blank MIDI track
--Piano Roll

At the bottom of the piano roll there is an area to draw 'Velocity', 'Controller' or 'Pitch Bend'
-- Select Controller from the drop down list
-- Select the controller number to draw from the next drop down list (may default to '0 Bank Change')
-- There are two draw mode buttons at the very bottom 'Freehand' and 'Line'
--Use the Mouse pointer to draw CC data in the area just to the right

Go back to the timeline - select the desired external MIDI out device for that MIDI track (probably defaults to Microsoft MIDI Mapper -- might what to configure this in the preferences, just like selecting wave out)

Ok I downloaded it, man is that a lot of plugs…

Anyhow I have tried two different options so far.

Midi audio to CC.
Midi notes to CC.

I noticed when I opened up the midi notes to CC VST I could change the number.
One thing I am noticing right away is this is not like any VST I have used, that is once you select it and set it up it does not stay in the BOX that says (midi) in it, where a normal FX would on a wav. track.
I don’t know if that is a midi thing, or exclusive to this plug.
Also I am noticing that I can select a different CC however if I go to another track and try and do the same thing the first VST box closes…if I set a new number in track one for instance than go to track two whatever I had on track one disappears and it goes back to 74.
IT seems you can only use this utility on one track at a time.

Moving on…I can tell this is going to take some time, even for the simplest of songs…here’s why.
I am noticing on the CC list specific numbers are used to turn an FX on and off, then the next to set it’s “type” the next to set “gain” the next for “level” and so on and so forth.
It would seem to me you would need multiple tracks to set even the simplest of FX, like say a Flanger, which is where I am wanting to begin.
Then there is the amp channels to contend with…

I did make a midi file and transfer it into the GNX4, with a few of what I thought where “CC” settings…basically numbers from within the piano roll under the word “controller”.
I still have not figured out how to get that going in the GNX4 and have it synce up with a mp3 I am using as a backing track.

Honestly I don’t think I had enough parameters in the midi file to make the GNX4 do anything, since I only used one track of midi that should have turned something “on” at a specific time. But I did not use other tracks with different CC’s to specify the rest of the parameters for what I was turning on , nothing happened.

Oddly enough the guitar sound changed on the device to 78.
Which was one of the numbers I used in a track I made in the midi files.
Unfortunately it went to a setting called “Divebomb” when the CC78 code should have instituted a "Delay Ducker threshold"
I can’t be sure that “Divebomb” is not some setting I have somehow associated with track01, but it is a HUGE coincidence if that is the case that the number is the the same given the odd out of 100.

So what we have is, I press play on the device, my drum track and bass line begin playing, sanctimoniously my sound changed to “78”.

Another odd thing, is that I set up two tracks in Ntrack with other “CC” numbers 22 and 24, one was supposed to trigger a Stompbox the other set the gain, however when I brought those tracks into Protracks unbenounced to me the CC settings zeroes out, in protracks is where I added the additional track that had the 78 setting, which took…

I am starting to think I have to use Protracks to do this… :disagree:



Whatever it takes!

Now the “78” setting that I got to work did not end at the time that the “78” track ended…I am starting to think the command 78 only needs to be one note long…does that make sense?
other CC’s say “on/off” so I am thiking I would only need a single event of say CC22 to turn the stombox FX on, then another at the point in the song I would want it to turn off…being sort of a light switch?

Like I said I noticed the “78” trigger did not end at the point the midi file ended…that is it did not seem to respect when the “note” ended as a command for the FX to end…and there is no “on/off” for that FX.


keep shinin

jerm :cool:

Quote: (phoo @ Apr. 22 2009, 1:01 PM)

Quote:

I see something that says "Controller"....is this the infamous CC?


CC# stands for Continuous Controller Number. Yes, in MIDI they are the same.

Right click in the timeline (blank area)
--Add blank MIDI track
Right click in the new blank MIDI track
--Piano Roll

At the bottom of the piano roll there is an area to draw 'Velocity', 'Controller' or 'Pitch Bend'
-- Select Controller from the drop down list
-- Select the controller number to draw from the next drop down list (may default to '0 Bank Change')
-- There are two draw mode buttons at the very bottom 'Freehand' and 'Line'
--Use the Mouse pointer to draw CC data in the area just to the right

Go back to the timeline - select the desired external MIDI out device for that MIDI track (probably defaults to Microsoft MIDI Mapper -- might what to configure this in the preferences, just like selecting wave out)

WOW!

It is all making sense now!...don't worry folks I am still an ignoramous....just not so much when it comes to CC's anymore....

I noticed when I do this it seems to put two or one vertical line in the white area....

I am also noticing if I make a straight line and hold it then let go it erases previous lines underneath it except where it began....

Now I have to figure out how to do this in protracks, because I am thinking I have to export a cakewalk file song of some kind to tell the GNX4 to play both the Midi FX sequence and the Mp3 I am wanting to be synced.

But as GIJoe said knowing is half the battle....

I am forever in your dept Phoo!

I am going to try this...and let everyone know how it turns out!
Heck, I may even post a video or two of my next show, with me changing sounds all cool hands free running around the stage like I got a midget in the back behind the FX rack pressing buttons!

I'm a gonna keep tootlin' with this today guys....will certainly keep everyone posted at to where this goes...

keep shinin

jerm :cool:

CCs are “continuous controller” commands. I think you may want “program change” instead. That’ll switch between patches on the GNX4 as the song plays rather than trying to “edit” the parameters on the fly.

?

Quote: (Mark A @ Apr. 22 2009, 2:07 PM)

CCs are "continuous controller" commands.
I think you may want "program change" instead.
That'll switch between patches on the GNX4 as the song plays rather than trying to "edit" the parameters on the fly.

?

I am not sure myself, these numbers are listed as CC's in the manual for various FX.
It says MIDI CC LIST and the names and numbers follow, Like I typed in the GNX4 forum.
I am not using a computer to do anything on the fly this is a stand alone device, so it is supposed to change these FX without a computer.

In theory I am supposed to be able to dump the midi files into a folder in the GNX4 along with the coresponding mp3, and a "cakewalk" file that has the two syncronized, then play that song number, and the midiCC numbers are supposed to change the FX as the Mp3 plays.....

I do not have a list of "program change" numbers in the manual.
But if this whole "CC" number thing does not end up working I am willing to learn what a "program change" is and how I would go about finding those numbers or setting up a midi file that will do such within the GNX4.

I tried the CC area Phoo mentioned, put in a couple of ticks on various CC numbers at various times in a timeline/midi file just to see if the GNX4 would play the file and associate it with the corresponding mp3.
However, since I am unsure at this time what type of "Cakewalk" file to save the whole project as to put into a SONG file in the GNX4 I cannot be sure that this midi file is working or not, nothing changed as far as FX when I play "Song01" which is the name I have designated for both the midi file and the mp3.
Also, I did not have a single "note" in the midi file, I am not sure if that makes a difference.....if it needs a note to trigger or begin or not, or if these CC numbers are enough.....

The one that I did earlier within Protracks seemed to trigger #78 within the GNX4, but I had a continuous note throughout that midi file.....

still takin baby steps here...

keep shinin

jerm :cool:

Hi again Jerm,
Read this whole thread. They tell you how to edit the midi event list to insert your CC# changes. They say it works for GNX4. (I think they are using SONAR) but not sure.
(Be sure to read all the small print - like how to edit the event list)

http://guitarlogic.org/index.php?action=printpage;topic=1101.0

Quote: (sevenOfeleven @ Apr. 22 2009, 5:53 PM)

Hi again Jerm,
Read this whole thread. They tell you how to edit the midi event list to insert your CC# changes. They say it works for GNX4. (I think they are using SONAR) but not sure.
(Be sure to read all the small print - like how to edit the event list)

http://guitarlogic.org/index.php?action=printpage;topic=1101.0

WOW this is tool cool.

I P'med TylerDurden earlier today when I found out he created a midi converter that converts regular midi drum tracks to the channel GNX4 tracks are on.
Noticing he was pretty savy with the GNX4 and software I asked him to write me back and give me a link if he has one to a basic explanation of how this FX sequencing works.
He has not come back online yet, but I can only assume this is the link he would have given me.
I scoured that site this afternoon for every thread concerning GNX4 and midi....but this thread title alluded my net, since it was titled.."Controlling a Guitar Audio Switcher (GCX) with midi (Midiox)"

Yeah this guys know what he is doin' and if he can't he just builds a software bridge that can!

Thanx again 7 I am going to print this out and take it back up to the lair.

I think mark had it right Tyler says "the messages are of "program/preset" type", not real sure where the "CC#'s come in, but there are two parameters changing, amps presets and FX...so...
According to the thread date they have been doing this since 2006, so I am sure there is more detail somewhere.
I still do not know what format to save the project file in. (cakewalk has many file extensions and I am sure only one of them is recognized by the GNX4) so that the right Mp3 is associated with the midi file.

keep shinin

jerm :cool:

Jerm,

If I’m reading what you want to do correctly… I’d load my “song” into my DAW (That’s n for you Reaper for me but whatever…) then I would program Bank/Program changes at the appropriate time in the song for whatever patch you want to play through on the Gall Dunrit 4 or whatever it is. The CC’s are controller messages which usually mean stuff like pitch, velocity, wah pedal position, etc… anywhere a continuous controller message makes sense. Changing patches in my POD XT requires a Bank/Program change. Changing a parameter such as the amount of drive or “wetness” of a reverb effect requires a change of a certain CC number. I can’t be sure because I don’t have the Digi-goob or whatever but I assume it is similar in functionality.

D

Quote: (Diogesneez @ Apr. 22 2009, 8:14 PM)

Jerm,

If I'm reading what you want to do correctly... I'd load my "song" into my DAW (That's n for you Reaper for me but whatever...) then I would program Bank/Program changes at the appropriate time in the song for whatever patch you want to play through on the Gall Dunrit 4 or whatever it is. The CC's are controller messages which usually mean stuff like pitch, velocity, wah pedal position, etc... anywhere a continuous controller message makes sense. Changing patches in my POD XT requires a Bank/Program change. Changing a parameter such as the amount of drive or "wetness" of a reverb effect requires a change of a certain CC number. I can't be sure because I don't have the Digi-goob or whatever but I assume it is similar in functionality.

D

YEp!

the is pretty much what I am doing.

I am loading the song (in this case and MP3) into Protracks(cakewalk bundle software)
The I am programming these CC#'s as Phoo has explained.
I haven't got to the "program change" part yet, I'm assuming that has to do with the amp models and I'm just wanting to change FX for now.
Then I am taking that midi file, and putting it in the GNX4 "midi" folder.
I then take the Mp3 file and put it in the "mp3" folder.
I then save a copy of the "cakewalk" file that contains both the midi track and the direction to the mp3.

The only part I am unsure of is the "channel" these midi tracks are supposed to be on.
So far I have tried 1. and in another forum I read they need to be on 16.
10, is designated for midi drums.
ANd also I am unsure as to what format I am supposed to save the Protracks file containing both the midi CC sequence and the direction to the mp3 file, into the "song" folder on the GNX4 memory card.
Protracks gives you several file extensions you can save a project as...so until I know that I am just shooting in the dark.

I got the main idea of how to make the midi CC files. and how to put them into the device.....but there is that missing link....of how to get it all to play together....

I am closer than I was tho, and.....
I've never spent much time in school, but I taught ladies plenty.
It's true I hire my body out for pay, hey hey!
I've gotten burned over Cheryl Tiegs, blown up over Rachel Welch
But when I wind up in the hay, it's only hay, hey hey!
I might jump an open drawbridge, or Tarzan from a vine,
'Cause I'm the unknown stuntman, that makes Eastwood look so fine.

keep shinin

jerm :cool:

HEy guys

just wanted to update everyone that was following the GNX4 saga…


SUCCESS!

that’s right folks, I got this puppy working!

NOw I can play my songs (with the bass and drum backing tracks) on stage foot FREE!

No more scrambling for pedals on stage and trying to press them while singing and playing! :)

IT’s going to be a long few weeks ahead of midi sequencing…but it will be worth every minute knowing I will never miss an FX change or have that embarrassing delay so many of those pedals have, (even if your foot is not delayed!)

We would like to thank everyone who put in time on this project. :agree: stay golden pony boys! ???

keep shinin

jerm :cool:

OK here is how it was done.

I am going to go into more detail in the GNX4 forum for the next midignoramus that tries this.

Basically the device will not play an MP3 and a midi file (you have to select one or the other in “song setup” mode.
However, it can play wav. files (it’s native format for recording) and midi files you associate with the song file.
Wav.s are bigger, but with a few 2G CF cards it is no problem to use them
:agree:
The device does not play stereo wav.s either, they have to be mono, but you can load 8 mono tracks into each song file if you want to…so not too bad.

What I did was loaded four mono tracks into SONGO1 folder.
Basically two drum tracks (left and right) and two bass tracks (left and right) which I had to split from stereo tracks in Ntrack.

Then I took the midi file I had with all the CC events in it and put them in the “MIDI” folder.
At first it did not work the manual said you could name the midi files anything you wanted to as long as they ended in the midi file extension.
However when I tried to set the song up (and associate the midi files with the song containing the wav. files) the midi file names did not show up on the dialer screen.
SO, I went into their folder and changed the names.
I changed the first one to SONG01 and the second to SONG02.
then I went back to set up the song…and there they were in with the rest of the drum presets.

So I set one of them to play with my SONGO1 that had the 4 mono wav. tracks in it (this actually leaves me four more to record over on the fly if I wanted to) and as I played the FX changed right where I wanted them to.
I did not need to save a cakewalk file into the SONG folder, the device generates it’s own command file XML extension that associate all the song settings with the tracks.

Interestingly, since I am sticking with wav. files that is going to open up some possibilities.

For instance. If I record a song a 122 BPM and load the tracks into the GNX4, I can then either load a midi file into it for my FX changes or I can use a midi file to program my own drums to it.
So far it will do either or, but I am hoping in the future to figure out how to use a single midi file (it only plays one at a time) to both tell the drums on channel 10 what to play as well as containing the CC# events for the FX changes.

By having all these tracks seperate and midi files at my disposal I am going to be able to use this device for open jam nights.
FOr instance,
If I have the bass on one track, the drums on another, and a midi sequence for my FX and a bass player shows up, I just mute that track and let them play along to me and the drums.
IF a drummer wants to join in, I just mute that track and me and the bass track accompany him (with maybe a midi metronome in his ear to keep time)
Same with keys and so on and so forth.

All of this is triggered by foot pedals, so I never have to stop playing to click a mouse or play on another device.

Eventually I want to get into using it as a midi sender to a light system (using the CC events for the FX changes to also trigger lights on stage to change).

So, MP3 no, wav. yes. and rather than one MP3 we have 8 mono wav files that can all be muted if need be per song while playing a midi track of drums and/or FX sequences.

My next challenge is really homing in on the CC#'s to calibrate all the aspects of the FX rather than just turning them off and on, along with trying to figure out how to set up a click track on only one channel so I can use that for timing during the parts of the song that do not have a beat.
:agree:
I think I can also load a wav. click and then tell the device to pan it…but that is a ways down the line…those are options in the song set up…

keep shinin

jerm :cool: