Need Suggestions

How to add depth

Hey guys,

I need your help. I need some suggestions.
I’m working on a new song. In the instrumentation there is a guitar panned hard in one direction and a piano panned to the other direction. They each have these intermittent licks that kind of accent what the vocalist is doing and I need them to poke you in the heart or at least stand out. Well they both sound thin and tinny tinky to me. Any suggestions on how to make them sound richer; more depth; more grown up? They sound so “fisher price” and I want them to sound Rhodes…

Come on, I know ya’ll got something for me.

I’m in the same fix at the moment mfl, guitar panned left and keyboard panned right. I’m using compression and room reverbs (tite room and small room) to bring them out in the mix. I’m sure others here will have more ‘proffesional advice cause they are serious about recording’, but that’s all I know to do.

A lot of the guys I know that need to make their tracks “Bigger” is… They double/clone their tracks and move/slide one of the tracks a few samples along the time-line… Remember now, these tracks are in stereo so panning them becomes important… and playing with their EQ’s and that sort of thing. Don’t over-do all this… Panning for example shouldn’t be more that say… 30% or 30 degrees… in any one direction… as this will take the track outside/beyond the “Listening Field”… unless, that’s what you want to achieve, in your mix…

After you’ve rendered those tracks and renamed it, then you re-import that rendered track back into the timeline and continue re-using the original track along with the original track, in-the-mix, until you decide that this is the space you want this track to occupy in your project…

Don’t forget… If this doesn’t work for you , you can always trash the idea and try something else…

There are other ways of doing/achieving this, but this is one way of exploring the end result… but adjusting a track’s dynamics this way is something to try…

Bill…

You want them hard panned?

The other thing is this - ever noticed how “small” in the mix a part might be, and yet how it becomes the part that makes the song? I stupidly tend to “overstate” the parts I want the reader to “get” - when understating them might be better. I really am surprised often when I go back to something form 35 years ago that I thought was the greatest, had the greatest guitar part, and I find the guitar part was “small” in the mix, and perfectly so. The psychology of it all is very interesting.

Ya got a file to post?

Hey Bill, I’ve tried the clone move the track and wind up with out phase sounds, how do you remedy this? Especially when trying on vocals.

Hi Again:
I hear you…

Ya gotta be careful with Vocal tracks working with their dynamics. At times, it’s easier to let the vocal track go till the very end of working the song till the final product. I think of the vocal track this way… It’s a guide track for the beds and overs till the beds and overdubs get mixed, and sounding … however… Then the vocal track(s) are re-tracked as the project comes together… For example, what was a great vocal track at first now may require re-phrasing and maybe a change of expression and energy… Who knows… ?? at times that sort of thing requires an adjustment right at the mic… It’s something like making your guitar track sound right during the tracking process… not at the “Fix-It-in-the Mix” concept…

But, I have been known to clone vocal tracks three times on the timeline… One for the Center and one for the Left-and-Right side of the image… all with small changes in each of their dynamics and presentation… and putting each of the clones In-and-Out of Phase, as may be nessessary…

Hey… there’s no substitute for doing the tracks right in the first place… Well… Don’t that sound just easy?? :O ??? :laugh:

Bill…

I was gonna edit again but I am unable to…

When sliding tracks along the timeline as a phase shift/sample slide remedy… You need to expand the timeline out to quite a large zoom… Then you decide the reference/adjustment point. Bring/move your cursor line up to the reference position and move the one track to some distance point… Remember now Mix levels and EQ are important… AND… keep in mind… moving the track too far is counter productive… There’s no set number of samples to slide… Your ears are gonna tell you it’s limit… There’s a point where a “Slap-Back” begins… Your not gonna go into that space… Unless you decide…

Don’t forget… You’re never gonna over-write the original track… and… most times the re-rendered tracks are going to be used along with the original track(s) on the timeline… unless you decide not to include the original track…

The producer always has the last word… That way it’s nice to have and use a fresh set of ears… and somebody who is not part of the Tracking and Mixing…

What sounded good yesterday is all trash next week…

Bill…

So what I’m gathering is:

I shouldn’t be panning them as far as they can go but just set them to the side a bit. Or Leave him in the middle, clone him and set the cloned one to the side to make it sound fuller but still give you that broader stereo field. Maybe leave the one in the middle flat and put a little compression and a little live ambience 'verb on the one set to the side?

Wox, re your last post: Exactly! what sounded great last week is just garbage now! I also may be suffering from a little ear fatigue. I sure could use a producer so I could just hand all the tracks over and not have to listen to it again until it’s done.

And about what someone said earlier… I’ll sing a lead vocal track very early in the tracking process as a reference. And I always record the very first take, no rehearsing. (There is ALWAYS something pure and original in that very first take that you never get again.) And I keep it until I’m done with all the background vocals. Then I’ll sing and record it through about three times, plus that first one. Then I pick/choose/cut/paste/move/slide or re-sing a word, phrase section until I get a complete lead vocal track that I’m satisfied with, (“satisfied” yeah like that ever happens) Anyway, what’s amazing is I usually end up keeping most of the very first take and snippets from the others!

Tom S.

Should I post just the instrumentation without the vocals? Isn’t there some widget within Ntrack where you can share files over cyberspace or something?

[Quote]
Maybe leave the one in the middle flat and put a little compression and a little live ambiance 'verb on the one set to the side?


Yes… and the opposite of that is worth some experimentation, or both effects, as well…

That’s where the saying comes from… or this is what the saying is… “Fix-It-in-the-Mix” (I believe) and… if that doesn’t work. you have gained some idea of what’s ahead of you… A new track, to the timeline… ??? :laugh:

Bill…

Ok Bill, I just went and played around with a rhythm guitar track that (as mfl described) sounded like fisher price cheap toy. Ok, after offsetting and keeping the guitar panned hard left, the clone track panned just off center right, and one click on timeline after expanding view out about 20 times, and putting the cloned track out of phase, ureka! I have an awsum guitar track now that doesn’t suck. And I don’t have to re record.

AWSUM BILL! Thanks!

Sometimes I have to hear it explained about a 1000 times before it clicks in me ol’ head.

Great! You’ve given me something to try. I’m so glad I’m off today! I’ll keep you posted…no pun intended…

I also like what you said about if I’m not happy with it I can trash it and try something else.

The easiest thing I know is to give it to one of you guys and let you fix it for me! Wouldn’t THAT be special…have some live musicians in my mix!

Now when ya’ll speak of “offsetting” and “phase shifting” do you mean like setting one track an “nth” ahead or behind it’s clone?

Bill is holding class! Go Bill, it’s your birthday…

We tend to pick ourselves to pieces while we adjust the “Project’s” learning curve…

We, as musicians and the project’s idea originators need to show some discipline and hold back some amount of energy till the producer is satisfied that every one’s on the same page with the end product. Just in case ya gotta do the track again…

Musicians who are “One-Track-Wonders”… piss me off… AND… none of their tracks appear in the Beds… AND… these guys can always do their parts 100% better with their parts if they had a good set of Beds to play to… Yet… they always want to track their lines first…

Why is that… anyway? :O ??? :( :)

Bill…

So true Bill!

mfl, yes, moving the cloned wave just a gopher hair ahead of the original. Then panning hard left and center, can you say SPACE!

I’m applying some negitive motivation to me… If only I could get past this Tracker’s Block"…

Maybe… Somewday… ??? :O :shutup:


hehe…

Bill…

Inspiration comes from doing good deeds Bill.
Today you have inspired mfl and myself, so that is a good deed my friend.
Which should be an inspiration to yourself! :D

Try not quitting at the first stop along the way… with your expirementations… Try as many combinations as you can come up with and your cloning ideas… Don’t toss out yesterday’s ideas… Save your .sng files… and go back to them to make sure you are heading to your objectives… ??? :;):

Bill…