No one wants to be a slave?

Rewire

Hi, first time posting, new potential user.

I’ve been trying out the demo version of N-track v4.1. The reason I’m interested in it is primarily for it’s midi sequencing features, along with the VSTi and DXi support. I’m already fluent on the audio side with other apps like Sonar, Acid, and Vegas and they pretty much have all my audio needs covered. With the exception of Acid, it seems like every app out there offers Rewire HOST capabilities. Well, I would like to use N-track in conjunction with Acid and Sonar. The reason I’m interested in N-track is because I’m a long time user of Opcode’s Studio Vision for my midi sequencing needs, N-track’s midi features is a familiar welcome addition. The problem is that N-track doesn’t seem to be capable of being a Rewire slave device. Am I over looking this capability or is this the case? It seems like to me that every app out there only offers Rewire host capabilities and nobody wants to be a slave. Well, with all hosts and no slaves this pretty much makes Rewire less flexible. If N-track doesn’t have rewire slave capabilities then please consider adding it.

Thanks,
Red

Hi,

I can’t answer your question but are you the same guy from the Sound Forge (Sony/Sonic Foundry) forum? If so, I recall that you are very knowledgable. Welcome!

"I can’t answer your question but are you the same guy from the Sound Forge (Sony/Sonic Foundry) forum?"

That’s me, although I can’t post in the Sony forums any longer. :( The big chief over at Sony got fed up because me and all the other audio users where pointing out all the short comings on the audio side of the latest Vegas 6 release. So they used me as an example and banned me from their forums. That move along with a few other bad moves on Sony’s part has made a large majority of their audio users upset. So if you visit the Sound Forge, Acid or Vegas audio forums, there’s not too much activity going on there any longer. That’s because after they banned me, myself and another user decided to create our own forums, and now that’s where a big part of the Sony audio users hang out now. Even a few of the Sony developers post more in my forum than the Sony forums. The head programmer of Sound Forge being one of them :D

You see a lot of posts like this one now in the Sony forums.
http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/forums…plies=3


Stop by if you like:
www.crossfade-forums.net.

I’m interested in N-track because I’m looking for something that’s strong with midi sequencing features, and I would like to use it in conjunction with Sonar and Acid. I can’t use it Sonar if both of them are hosts only, unless I sync them via Midi Beat clock or Smpte…and that’s what I’m trying to get away from.

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The big chief over at Sony got fed up because me and all the other audio users where pointing out all the short comings on the audio side of the latest Vegas 6 release. So they used me as an example and banned me from their forums.

That absolulely s*cks!!! The Sony developers/managers should be paying instead of banning you. I was thinking about upgrading my Sound Forge 5.0 but now I’ll think twice. It shows their mentality. Would the Sonic Foundry guys have treated you like that?

nTrack/MIDI experts - please help Red with his midi questions, etc.

This is a great little forum of users ranging from beginners to semi-pro’s.

I’ll check out your site. Please check out mine when you have time - Music Is Love. I’m also setting up a new site - pcDAW

PS - contact Flavio, the creator of nTrack, directly. He’ll listen.

thats funny. it seems like so many “official” forums are plagued by this kind of stuff. Well, maybe “plagued” isn’t the right word, its not necessarily a bad thing, its just common with digital audio I suppose…

Its just comforting to know that everybody has problems getting this stuff to work. I’ve had problems with n-Track, then my M-Audio cards, and now I’m having some growing pains with my Yamaha i88X. Sometimes the bottom line is that the stuff just doesn’t work like its supposed to.

If you want to see some truly irate users, check out some of the posts at www.mlancentral.com and www.01xray.com

I’m afraid n-Track is a Rewire master only. No way slavin’ it.

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I’m interested in N-track because I’m looking for something that’s strong with midi sequencing features

This has me puzzled. I never thought of n-Track being “strong with midi sequencing features” at all.
Could you please tell exactly what features you intend to use?

Now, I may be completely wrong (wouldn’t be the first time), but I thought REWIRE was a propellerhead technology designed so you could use propellerhead software (i.e. Reason) in other applications. If so, then only propellerhead software can be slaves…

As far as the sequencing, it isn’t good at sequencing per-se unless you are proficient at using piano roll (I am not, but if you can use it, n is very capable as far as that goes). I think the real midi capabilities are in the vsti and dxi hosting, plus the benefit of the “live” function, as well as still being able to use VST effects and doing offline mixdown once the file has been arranged. (Oh, and being able to use rewire with reason, playing a midi file using sounds from reason is pretty cool too…)

fish

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If so, then only propellerhead software can be slaves…


Nah, I use Fruity as a slave. Nice thought process though.

Not to hi-jack the thread or anything, but, I’d second the thought that midi isn’t N’s strong suite. It’s quantizing is passable, but the filtering leaves something to be desired. 'Course, that said, I should also mention that I’m an old Cakewalk bigot.

My question to others on this thread is: Is that how you use Rewire? To overcome a weakness of N (mostly midi in my mind – the audio parts of N ROCK)? In otherwords, why wouldn’t you just use a VSTi instead and skip the Rewire overhead… ???

I think he is wanting to use n-Track in Acid and Sonar, as a rewire device, using n’s DXi capabilities, which neither acid nor sonar have as far as I can tell. As well, he says he like’s n’s sequencing capabilities, which is odd because they seem pretty standard to me. Nothing stellar.

Red, Hansje and Mark are undoubtedly correct, but I’ve never personally tried using n as a slave.

But, I have tried using it as a host with Fruity as slave, but with far from successful results. In the end, I just used Fruity as a VSTi, and that works well.

And I agree with Hansje and Billthecat that n is “ok” for MIDI, but I wouldn’t say it’s any better than “ok”.

Jees. Flavio really should take another look at the MIDI side of things. First of all, the UI of the piano roll could be improved. This I think is more important than adding more filtering. Also, the ability to create and insert MIDI regions or loops would be a great step forward.
But improving what is already there should come first.

Bye now.

Thanks for the further replies folks. This is definitely helpful. Ultimately, here is the workflow I am looking to accomplish. I want to have three seperate apps, which will be dedicated to their own specialized tasks broken up into 3 tools. 1) Dedicated Multitracker/editor/mixer 2) Dedicated Midi Sequencer 3) Dedicated Loop Sequencer.

I like Sonar for item #1. I have not really tried out the midi sequencing features in Sonar. They’re probably pretty good, but it’s just not the way I wish to work of having a combination of audio and midi in the same program. My brain just doesn’t like the confusion of having midi tracks and audio tracks all laid out in the same screen.

Ultimately when I start to assemble a song, I start with midi sequencing. So I want to have an app that is dedicated just to that and it would allow me to use internal VSTi’s and DXi’s as well as external sound modules. Along that process, I may find that I might want to add some loops. So I open up Acid, and rewire it to my midi sequencer, since Acid is more focused on loop sequencing than most apps. Now both are running together yet have their own dedicated UI to that particular task. Now at that point most of the preproduction of the song is complete so I want to add live instruments and vocals. So now I open up my multi track program and rewire both the midi sequencer to it and Acid. At this point I would probably lay off everything into the multitracker as seperate audio tracks. So now I can unrewire the midi sequencer and loop sequencer to the multitracker and get those elements out of my view and just focus in on recording, editing and mixing. The midi sequencing tracks are out of my way, the loop sequencing tracks are out of my way but are still available if I ever need to go back and change anything.

So from the sounds of it, it doesn’t sound like Ntrack is strong on the midi sequencing side, and it doesn’t offer Rewire slave capability. Sigh…still searching. :(

FYI, any program can have either Rewire Host and/or Rewire Slave capabilities. What I find is that a lot of programs advertise that they have “REWIRE SUPPORT”. That doesn’t tell you if it’s fully Rewire functional though of being able to be a Host or a slave. Most apps like Sonar, Cubase and now Ntrack say they have REWIRE capabilities. Yes, they do…but…none of these apps have Rewire SLAVE capabilities, therefore I can not use them together in a Rewired fashion. Acid has Rewire Host and Slave capabilities, therefore it is more flexible in allowing me to decide how I chose to use it with the other app.

Basically, there can only be one HOST, but you can have multiple slave devices. The host acts like the Master mixer and controls access to your sound card outputs. The slaves then route their audio output to an input channel on the HOST instead of directly to your sound card, through a rewire connection and everything can be heard together through the Hosts mixer section. The host also sends Tempo and Timeline positions to all slave devices and this is how the multiple programs sync together.

What I’m looking for is a program that will fit my Item#2 above, which has strong midi sequencing features and is really a dedicated midi sequencer with Virtual Synth support as well as External Synth support and can be a Rewire Slave device and even a host. Cubase SX is supposet to have strong midi sequencing features, and if I could, I would Rewire that together with Sonar and use Sonar for multitrack audio and Cubase SX for midi sequencing. The Problem? Cubase…all versions only come with rewire HOST capability. So that scenario is not possible.

Have you looked at Plogue Bidule Red?

It’s my understanding that the latest version has quite comprehensive Rewire support and re-routing capabilities, but I haven’t actually tried it myself.

It’s probably not quite what you need, but the earlier version which I have used, does enable very versatile routing, so it may help.

I did browse over to their site after I went to Propellar Heads site to see what was listed as available Rewire Synth devices. I’m pretty confused though as to what exactly is bodule? If you could help me out and let me know what it is and what I can do with it then that would help. Right now it looks like some kind of patch bay, and I don’t know of a patch bay to what though?

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and I don’t know of a patch bay to what though?


Well Red, like all patch bays, it’s not to anything! It just sits there staring at you waiting for you to plug things in and out of it. :p

:D

But you’re right, a virtual patchbay it is; Audio, MIDI, and Rewire (although I’ve never actually used the Rewire part of it).

I have an Audigy2 ZS, but because it’s not the platinum, then the Creative software is very limited in what it can do, but with bidule I have access to all the Asio ins and outs, Midi streams, hardware DSP, etc., and I can route them as I wish.

It replaces midiyoke and Vstack and much much more, and most of all, it’s fun to play with! :D

All I can really suggest is D/L the demo, and play with it too. :)

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All I can really suggest is D/L the demo, and play with it too.

Yes, I can recommend this!

Bidule is a real beauty.
The program can work stand-alone, be either Rewire slave or master, vst host or plugin.
Or even several of these at the same time, as multiple instances are allowed too.

If you are looking for a ready-to-use midi sequencer though, Bidule may not be for you.
Midi sequencing is very well possible from Bidule, but you’ll have to build it yourself.

But do yourself a favor: Try the demo! :)

Seems like you should just learn Sonar. Given that cakewalk’s roots are in midi sequencing, I’m guessing the midi is better in Sonar than in N. Sonar also can handle Acid Loops and audio.

It’s a very deep program and I’ve only played with it a little bit, but if it was me I wouldn’t be trying to rewire a bunch of stuff together unnecessarily.

If you really don’t like the way Sonar handles loops, then rewire Acide to it as a slave (assuming you have Acid 5).

I’d also look at Abelton Live. It can be either rewire host or slave (one of the few that does that). It also does loops and the newer version seems to have better straight DAW features too.

It must be much easier to provide rewire host capability than slave capability, because everyone provides host, but few people do slave. That or there is some marketing reason (everyone wants to be at the center rather than an ancillary application).

KS

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It must be much easier to provide rewire host capability than slave capability, because everyone provides host, but few people do slave. That or there is some marketing reason (everyone wants to be at the center rather than an ancillary application).


It’s probably a little bit of both. I’m sure it’s easier to just send out sync informaton then it is to sync up and chase to it and maintain a sample accurate sync, plus still handle your other main processing tasks. The marketing aspect is there, because like I said everyone comes out and says we have “Rewire” support, then you have to dig and dig thru documentation to find out it’s only halfway supporting rewire. I found that to hold true with Ntrack also. I went to the Propellar Head site to see if it was listed there, but Ntrack didn’t even appear on their list.

For some reason, I don’t think Bidule is going to be my answer either. Basically I would have 2 apps with output sync and tying them together thru a patch bay does me no good if neither one is programed to listern for that incoming sync through it’s rewire driver.

I did download the trial of Ableton. I’m currently in the mist of trying out all kinds of demo’s. So far it looks like Ableton and Cakewalk’s Project 5 v2 are my best bets. I actually like Project 5 but it’s designed to work with Virtual synths only…but they did tell me there’s a plugin that will allow me to route midi tracks to a midi interface…well it doesn’t sound like the best scenario…but my options look like they’re getting slim.

All in all I’m on the train of thought where I have the opinion that technology really needs to take a step backwards to take 2 steps forward. I am using Sonar but even with my dual monitor setup there’s just too much crap jammed in the user interface to make it really user effecient in working with strictly audio or strictly midi. What ever happened to dedicated midi sequencers? This is why I still use Opcode’s studio vision even after Gibson bought them out and buried them into the ground over 5 years ago.

Come on Fasoft, offer us a product that no else does, a dedicated midi sequencing tool that can be used with virtual and external synths as well as flexible rewire support so that it can be interfaced with our audio app of choice.