Hardware set-up?
I’m thinking about getting the MOTU 828MKII or something very similar. I want to be able to use it on location to record live bands and such, but am not quite sure how to hook everything up.
Assume that most scenarios would involve just a small mixer/amp combo setup with no individual sends for each channel.
I 'm thinking there should be a way for me to supply either a mixing board or signal splitter of some sorts in order to route the signal from the stage to both the PA mixer and the inputs of the multitrack…
I could supply a mixing board, feed the stage lines into it, plug the sends into the recorder, and send the main out to the PA… However, in doing that, my board would be running the mix for the PA, and levels and such would change on the recording, right?
Also, could use some recommendations on an inexpensive board for this kind of work? Berry? Yahamaha? Mackie? Carvin? I’m clueless, except that I know everybody laughs at Berry. 
-OR-
Is there some way to split the signal from the stage to go in two directions (one way to the PA, the other way to the recorder) without creating some sort of impeadance mismatch?
Ideas anyone?
Thanks!
-John
Hey John,
One method I have used that works well, is to use DI boxes with multiple outputs. One goes to PA mixer, the other to 828. The other route which you have already mentioned, is to use a PA mixer with direct outs OR inserts. To use the inserts you’ll have to make or buy a special cable to keep the signal intact for the mixer while “tapping” the signal for your MOTU. Carvin makes GREAT gear and I believe most of their mixers have direct outs or inserts. Pop back if you have more questions. I’ll be glad to help if I can.
TG
Question 1:
A mixer with 8 (or more) inserts will work. It is post ‘trim’ but pre ‘everything else’, so you riding the faders won’t make any difference to the recording as by that time the signal is ‘split’ to the soundcard already.
Use either Y leads halfway plugged into the inserts, or use a cable with the following config :
Stereo phono plug on one side, ring and tip shorted to the ‘signal’ part of a shielded cable, the sleeve connected to the shield of the cable. This go into insert, and the other end have just a mono phono connected as normal. This goes into the soundcard.
Some mixers have a ‘line out’ function on its channels that let you tap a post pre-amp/trim pre fader/eq signal directly out with a mono phono jack to phone jack.
Question 2:
Something like this ?
HtH
Wihan
Gotta be careful, not ALL direct outs are PRE-fader!! Check that before you buy. Our FOH mixer at church is configured from the factory with the direct outs POST-fader. That sucks for what I want to do which is basically the same thing as John. We have a MOTU 24IO that we want to feed our signals to for recording. I’m going to have to disassemble the mixer, move about a billion tiny jumpers and reassemble to make the direct outs PRE-fader. PITA! Once thats done…I’ll set the trims for the channels to get a good signal for the MOTU and the mixer. Then FOH sound dude can ride his faders, mute, solo etc… all he wants without affecting the recording. (Of course, I may have to GLUE the trim pots in place to keep somebody from tweaking them…)
TG
| Quote (gtr4him @ Mar. 29 2005,10:13) |
| One method I have used that works well, is to use DI boxes with multiple outputs. One goes to PA mixer, the other to 828. |
Thanks for the input so far... I figured it could be done coming out of the mixer pre's and into the recorder, then sending the main out to the PA... But in some cases it may be better to have a way to just split the signal before it goes to the PA board.
The DI box thing wounds workable but a bit unwieldy -- 8 DI's... plug an XLR into a DI, and you've got 1/4" coming out... plug a 1/4" into a DI and you've got XLR coming out... and use the parallel output to go to the recorder? argh.
…
My berry has both insterts and direct out. The insterts are pre everything but trim, and the direct outs are post fader. I use the insterts into a 4 channel comp/limiter so that the limiter brickwalls without makeup gain.
What gets limited depends on your setup. For my last job (a jam session with 6 open voc mics, keys, drums, bass and two guitars), I miced everything myself since they were’nt doing so, to my own setup off the stage. I ran a group of the vocal mics to a limiter to the herc, kick and OH to a limiter and channel each, and later the bass (DI’d) to a limiter and channel as the new player was hitting it hard. Guitars and keys just went straight to the Herc via desk inserts.
I’ve done the mix while recording to HD thing too. Be prepared to be pulling your hair out while doing so.
A couple of channels of limiting can really save your session in these situations. Trust me, I know. Nice thing is that with the limiter at it’s lowest setting on my alto com/lim, the highest peak I’ll get is -2.3db according to the ntrack rec VU.
Willy.
John, have you checked out
This Link yet ?
This is 4 channel, (but I’m shure you’ll be able to get 8 channel as well). You plug line in (or mic in) into it and at the back it’s got a balanced XLR out, plus a seperated line out for each channel.
One goes to house mixer, other into the recorder.
I think best (read easiest and cheapest / most versatile) solution would be mixer with inserts. What Terry says makes sense. The berry stuff and the spirit folio ones (afaik) is pre fader, but the other brands you need to make sure.
W.
Oh, and here is more info than what you need on splitting signal before it goes to the desk…
This is a quote from that site :
<!–QuoteBegin>
| Quote |
| Whirlwind SB Series multichannel microphone splitters provide a convenient method of splitting multiple microphone signals to two locations. Each channel has a Whirlwind WC3F female XLR input connector wired to two Whirlwind WC3M male XLR outputs - available with either two direct outputs or one direct and one transformer isolated output. These can be ordered with ground lift switches on one output. The boxes are built from heavy cold-rolled steel for long term abuse-resistance. |
This is the second thing on the page.
Passive (transformer isolated) splitter box that goes between the stage box of your snake and the band.
Passive outputs split off to stage box and recorder.
But then you have a need for seperate pre-amps again if your soundcard don’t have. Another mission.
Unless you seriously need to get a mobile live recording rig going, I suppose it is better to go with a mixer and inserts.
I can confirm Ali’s suggestion : I’ve had nothing but good service from the Soundcraft Spirit Folio range of mixers.
They tend to have lots of options as well. My little eight channel Spirit Folio Lite has more routing options than what I can shake a stick at…
Just some more info to (hopefully not) confuse you more…
Cheers !
Wihan
| Quote (Wihan Stemmet @ Mar. 29 2005,15:22) |
| This is (4 channel, but I'm shure you'll be able to get 8 channel as well). You plug line in (or mic in) into it and at the back it's got a balanced XLR out, plus a seperated line out for each channel. |
Yep, but I'm on a dial-up right now and the manuals take forever to load, so I wasn't sure what kind of outputs it has. That definetly looks it could be a solution if I simply want to split the signal before it ever gets to the FOH mixer. At about $80 each, X2 for 8 channels, I'm looking at $160 for a tool that I may not use that often... Hmmm.... A mixer certainly would be more versatile...
So then off I go to look at:
Soundcraft Spirit Mixer
And I say, "Neato... but where do I plug in my mouse so I can twiddle all those little knobs around?"
So, here's my next question: With a mixer like the one above (or another) can I plug the various mic's (XLR) and direct lines (1/4") into their own channel and then in turn send that signal *both* to an individual channel on the recorder and to an indivdual channel on the FOH mixer?
Sorry if you've already pretty much answered this question, but it may have gone over my head... I don't have much experience with live sound other than when the soundman goes "Hey jackhole, plug your bass into this little black box!"
Yep… That would certainly do the trick:
Coudn’t find a price, though, so I’m sure it’s well beyond my meager budget.
So, here's my next question: With a mixer like the one above (or another) can I plug the various mic's (XLR) and direct lines (1/4") into their own channel and then in turn send that signal *both* to an individual channel on the recorder and to an indivdual channel on the FOH mixer?
Yip - three conditions:
1:The mixer has an input for both XLR and jack direct in on each strip
2: The mixer has an insert for each of those strips (channels) you want to use
3: The mixer is configured to send the signal to the insert jack post 'trim' but pre fader.
HtH
Wihan
P.S.
Coudn't find a price, though, so I'm sure it's well beyond my meager budget.
Sadly with me thats more often than not the case.
Again, if this was going to be a regular thing that would be nice, but you're going to need pre-amps with that solution as well...
It looks nice though heh ?
Edit / That mixer looks nice - it's even got a sweeping mid.
Yip - three conditions:
1:The mixer has an input for both XLR and jack direct in on each strip
2: The mixer has an insert for each of those strips (channels) you want to use
3: The mixer is configured to send the signal to the insert jack post 'trim' but pre fader.
HtH
Wihan
P.S.
Coudn't find a price, though, so I'm sure it's well beyond my meager budget.
Sadly with me thats more often than not the case.
Again, if this was going to be a regular thing that would be nice, but you're going to need pre-amps with that solution as well...
It looks nice though heh ?
Edit / That mixer looks nice - it's even got a sweeping mid.
| Quote (John @ Mar. 29 2005,15:56) |
| So, here's my next question: With a mixer like the one above (or another) can I plug the various mic's (XLR) and direct lines (1/4") into their own channel and then in turn send that signal *both* to an individual channel on the recorder and to an indivdual channel on the FOH mixer? |
If you wanna go to your recorder, in your case possibly a MOTU 828mkII, AND the Spirit Mixer AND the FOH mixer, you are talking about yet MORE harware.
The easiest solution is to use the FOH mixers Inserts (with the right cable) or Direct outputs (if Pre-Fader) to feed your recorder. This way, the FOH guy/gal has control over the house mix and monitor mix and YOU have control over your recording hardware. You STILL have to set the levels properly for your recording device via the trim pots on the FOH board, but that should not be problem.
PM me an email address and I'll email you a graphic to maybe help clear the mud. I don't have any web space to host it or I'd just give you a link.
TG
Computers crash and the moment is lost. Better reliability would be to rent an ADAT and mix down to PC after the gig.
Folks have mentioned a number of techniques:
- tapping from FOH’s mixer
- plugging mikes into your mixer (or preamps) and sending FOH from your inserts
- passive mike splitters (Note: the split-6 is NOT an option, except as noted below for “line level splitters”)
Lots of things depend on
- what’s there already
- your relationship with the FOH guy
First, many FOH guys won’t want you inserting stuff between his mikes and his mixer, because they don’t want yet another source of trouble to investigate if anything goes wrong.
Second, he may be using inserts on some channels for limiters. If so, you’ll need a line level splitter there, or a special Y cable should do in a pinch. Never seen such a cable, but it could be easily made.
If he does allow you inserting something in the path, the easiest and most convenient for YOU is a mixer with insert jacks for every channel. Another option is passive splitting using the Whirlwind, and feeding your end into a mixer.
With only 8 channels, you’re very limited. Unless it’s a pretty small act with few or no vocalists, you’ll have well over 8 mikes to record. For this you NEED a mixer, to put together the submixes (e.g., the drums submix).
If you’re really tight with the FOH guy and he’s really interested in helping you, then MAYBE he’ll be SUPER NICE and do these submixes for you, so you can take direct taps on 5 or 6 channels, and submixes from his board for the others. This is going way beyond the call of duty for the FOH guy, because it compromises his flexibility and complicates his job. Worst of all, it tempts you to put hands on his board, and two sets of hands on a board are generally very bad!
SO, it’s better to have your own mixer, and use one or more of the methods outlined above to get the signals into your mixer. Plus, you need to go to the venue and buy the FOH guy dinner and a few beers (or find him a fox, or whatever), and take a very, very careful look at how he has the board rigged, especially whether he’s using any inserts, and if so, on how many channels (e.g., just vocals?)
Come back with some facts and maybe we can help you hone in.
Meanwhile, you want to start looking at mixers with plenty of channels and the ability to generate a few submixes. Personally, I much prefer 4-bus mixers. But I often draft a single mixer into service for FOH plus recording – and I don’t recommend it!
One to check out is the Yamaha MG 16/6FX. Another good one, but a bit pricier and probably more than you want, is the Mackie 1604 VLZ. There’s a similar Behringer.
I suggest you don’t bother with anything with fewer than 16 channels, and at least 12 mike preamps. You’ll find plenty of uses for such a mixer. If you go below that, it gets very limited very fast. I’m talking about a typicall small bar application, btw.
8 channels seems like a lot until you try to actually use it! Oh, the mkII has 10 channels doesn’t it. Those extra two help immensely! (If nothing else, you can use them for one house mike on the audience and one mike near the front of the stage. These can be very helpful.)
Another option to consider is finding a cheap audio-to-ADAT converter, so you can get 16 channels total through your 828. In most cases, this eliminates the need for a mixer, because you won’t need to do any submixes. (You might still use a mixer just as a signal splitter, but you don’t need its mixing capability.)
Tom, you’re right, but it depends on how precious the gig is. Sometimes we record gigs and it’s OK if it’s a “no-go”. This is when we’re not being paid, usually!
BTW, about 2 months ago I recorded a live gig with excactly this mixer : berry mixer.
I know its a berry, but this thing rocked.
It’s got all the inputs, inserts into the pc and then I could use some of its built in effects to the house mix, without it being applied to what the pc heard.
What Tom says makes sense - I recorded it in sets of three songs each, and my PC is rather stable - I was still sweating the whole evening tho’ …
Edit/ What Jeff says make sense as well.
The berry I linked to is what I think would go with his description as well.
10 pre’s and 4 bus… /edit
W.
| Quote (Wihan Stemmet @ Mar. 29 2005,16:11) |
| 1:The mixer has an input for both XLR and jack direct in on each strip 2: The mixer has an insert for each of those strips (channels) you want to use 3: The mixer is configured to send the signal to the insert jack post 'trim' but pre fader. |
OK... I follow you so far, but where do I get the second signal to send to each channel on the FOH mixer?
If I understand corectly you want:
Stage -> Your mixer -> FOH mixer ?
And your mixer is not going to be the FOH mixer ?
This is going to complicate things, but you can then run lineouts from the soundcard again and into the FOH mixer.
Just set the card then to ‘echo’ (monitor) all the seperate inputs to the coresponding outputs.
-You’ll have channels 1 - 8 on your mixer filled with whatever comes from the stage.
-Inserts will take it into the PC
-The Pc will be set so that the soundcard monitor routing takes ch1 input -> ch1 output
ch2 input -> ch2 output
Etc.
The channel 1-8 outputs of the soundcard will then go into the FOH mixer.
Edit - to confirm Jeff’s comment, the house engineer will need to love you very much to make this scenario work. Also disable Windows system sounds - edit
If you are going to do the FOH mix as well, then things will be easier.
You’ll input into your mixer, and then (via inserts) put it into the pc, monitor the levels, and then you’ll hit record on the PC and mix the FOH as usual.
W.