Now my head is spinning - it is now 10 to midnight here, so I’ll log in again in about 8 hours to see if we’ve managed to scare you off or not 
Hasta la vista, baby.
I’ll be back…
| Quote (gtr4him @ Mar. 29 2005,16:22) |
| The easiest solution is to use the FOH mixers Inserts (with the right cable) or Direct outputs (if Pre-Fader) to feed your recorder. |
I'm talking *very* small bar gigs here... I can expect that the PA will be a combo mixer/amp deal and there will be none of these fancy inserts of which you speak.
Mostly, I'm trying to figure out how to split the signals before they reach the FOH PA and send them in both directions - into the recorder, and into the FOH.
Jeff mad an interesting point in that the inserts might not always be open for me to use... If I *do* have inserts availible from the FOH mixer, I can go straight into the recorder -- no other mixer needed. I think.
THe live thing probably won't go beyond recording myself and a few friends when they gig, but ya never know. I'd like to leave room for growth without going too overboard.
BTW, I read some of the reviews on that Berry mixer -- it looks like you're one of the few blessed with trouble-free operation...
Jeff -- mostly the "soundguy" will be the guitar player or something similar. I'm talking about really small gigs. ...And that Mackie is purty, but way more than I want to spend for a mixer right now, but the Yahmaha looks nice.
Thanks again!
| Quote (John @ Mar. 29 2005,16:55) |
| If I *do* have inserts availible from the FOH mixer, I can go straight into the recorder -- no other mixer needed. I think. BTW, I read some of the reviews on that Berry mixer -- it looks like you're one of the few blessed with trouble-free operation...
|
Yip to the 1st quote ...
About the berry, we hired it that night, and it was brand spanking new (we were the 1st guys to hire that spesific model), and gave it back the next day, so it might still be that someone else will have problems. Don't they usually last 'till the warrenty period's over ?
| Quote (Wihan Stemmet @ Mar. 29 2005,16:47) |
| Stage -> Your mixer -> FOH mixer ? And your mixer is not going to be the FOH mixer ? This is going to complicate things, but you can then run lineouts from the soundcard again and into the FOH mixer. |
Yep. That's what I was thinking... That's how we got on the subject of using a signal splitter.
It'd would be a little nuts to run everything through the sound card and then to the PA, don't ya think?
Maybe I should just get a small mixer to use on gigs where the PA is one of theose combo PA/AMP deals - use my mixer to mix FOH (send main outs from my mixer to one channel on the PA) and send indivdual channels to the recorder via the inserts.
On gigs where the FOH has inserts, I could just plug straight from them into the recorder.
I think we’ve posted ‘out of phase’ on the above 3 posts …
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| It’d would be a little nuts to run everything through the sound card and then to the PA, don’t ya think? |
Absolutely
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| Maybe I should just get a small mixer to use on gigs where the PA is one of theose combo PA/AMP deals - use my mixer to mix FOH (send main outs from my mixer to one channel on the PA) and send indivdual channels to the recorder via the inserts. On gigs where the FOH has inserts, I could just plug straight from them into the recorder. |
That will be 1st prise. (and will be the easiest solution)
That is the essence.
And then if you look at expanding, you’ll need a soundcard with more inputs, and a mixer with more inserts.
Ok now I’m really going to bed…
ZZzzzzzzz
00:12
Thanks for your input everyone! Now I have to figure out which mixer to get… the Soundcraft looks good, but the Yahmaha would be more versitile… Then again, I don’t anticipate using it much… Then again, ya never know… Ugh. Somebody get me a beer.
I knwo whjat I forgot to ask… If I plug in to the insert jacks of a mixer to feed a recorder, what kind of cable do I use? Plain 1/4? TRS? Twine?
Can I use regular “guitar” type cables for this, or am I asking for trouble?
…
Coudn't find a price, though, so I'm sure it's well beyond my meager budget.
Could work out cheaper than buying multiple di's/splitter/desks. If the venue is supplying the mics/setup being used, all you'd need is a splitter going to something like a laptop/MOTU828/ada8000 combo, no desk required for you, let someone else worry about FOH.
I've got a berry 2442fx-pro too, I run with the inserts from it. Get something a bit bigger/better that what you think you need, going cheap/pov/spartan can prove to be a bit of a false economy. BTW, it has 10 mic pres, but only 8 inserts and 8 direct outs (but 4 groups too).
Could work out cheaper than buying multiple di's/splitter/desks. If the venue is supplying the mics/setup being used, all you'd need is a splitter going to something like a laptop/MOTU828/ada8000 combo, no desk required for you, let someone else worry about FOH.
I've got a berry 2442fx-pro too, I run with the inserts from it. Get something a bit bigger/better that what you think you need, going cheap/pov/spartan can prove to be a bit of a false economy. BTW, it has 10 mic pres, but only 8 inserts and 8 direct outs (but 4 groups too).
I use a delta 1010 LT pci card.
I went for the pci because everything I read said usb irq handling sucks, creating latency problems.
The RME Hammerfall is what I have heard is the best for the money. I have seen them on the net for 5 - 700.00
The delta has 8 analog channels and they are stackable, so 16, 24 are possible and I think they use the same chip as the hammerfall which has 24 or 32 I/O’s.
The delta has 2 preamped inputs, others need a board or some kind of “preamps”. (another topic).
Lots of fun, and lots of hard work.
…
Ali & everyone,
Thank you so much for your input and advice! I’m gonna have to print out Ali’s post about the signal path through the insert plug… I’m sure it makes sense once you get your hands on it, but it’s 0823hrs and I’m still drinking my first bucket of coffee.
On mixers:
Is there much of a difference in quality of sound between the Yahmaha and Soundcraft mixers? Whatever mixer I get will become part of my signal chain for recording at home as well…
Also… Has anyone tried mixing down a song externally instead of using n-Track’s mixer? I guess it could be done with a multiple output card, right? Is there a difference in the sound?
Also... Has anyone tried mixing down a song externally instead of using n-Track's mixer? I guess it could be done with a multiple output card, right? Is there a difference in the sound?
That's gonna be intersting to say the least.
You'll have to ride faders realtime (so no offline mixdown), and what are you gonna do with the output of the 8 channels ?
Record it back into N ? Into a different recorder ?
And then you'll have more D/A and A/D convertions, so i suppose the sound will suffer.
I hold the exclusive right to have completely missunderstood that question, in which case please disregard my answer and respect my right to try and not feel bad about it ...
That's gonna be intersting to say the least.
You'll have to ride faders realtime (so no offline mixdown), and what are you gonna do with the output of the 8 channels ?
Record it back into N ? Into a different recorder ?
And then you'll have more D/A and A/D convertions, so i suppose the sound will suffer.
I hold the exclusive right to have completely missunderstood that question, in which case please disregard my answer and respect my right to try and not feel bad about it ...
Hey, me again.
About Ali’s post - maybe this will help as well :
The reason inserts were origionally there, was so that you could put a limiter or compressor or something like that in the chain.
The signal goes into the preamp, and then with a ‘stereo Y splitter cable’ (one stereo one side and two mono other side) the signal goes into the processor , and then out the other side back in the chain. Then it goes down the rest of the strip.
Because of the way it have to work, the ‘insert’ totally breaks the chain as you put a jack into it (usually it is used for dynamic type of effects). So now in the recording world we started using that as a clean output to plug into a recorder, but then you have to get the same signal back into the mixer strip. So either you use the Y lead, and then put the outgoing signal from the Y into your soundcard, and then the output of the card into the other leg of the Y, or you use a cable as described.
What happens then is :
Signal —> Insert
Tip —> soundcard
(And because you shorted tip and ring)
Tip —> Ring
Ring —> rest of the channel strip.
Hope this helps…
Wihan
The Behringer Wihan posted was just what I was thinking. IIRC, it has a lot of features that make it a big improvement over the Mackie (from a purely functional standpoint). For example, when you push the “SOLO” button on a track, that track goes to the meters as well as headphones, and I think this does NOT happen on the Mackie. That’s a VERY helpful feature. It also has enough channel assigns and mute buttons. It’s definitely worth looking into, even if you’re prone to be anti-Behringer. A careful look will show that while this has many of the features of the Mackie, it’s not a very direct clone and really, mixers have been around long enough that you don’t have to copy someone to get the idea!
Given that this is a very small bar – more like a coffee house in terms of setup – a mixer like that should be ideal; plug the mikes into your mixer and then feed the FOH mixer.
It’s a VERY good idea to have two separate mixers, one for house and one for recording. (But only if you need to submix, as I mentioned earlier.)
What’s the lineup? 3 piece with only one vocalist? If so, then 8 channels should be fine with no submixing. That leaves 4 mikes for drums and one for house.
The best way to cable it, if you’re using inserts, is to get a Hosa snake. They make an 8-channel, 6 foot snake with TRS on one end and TS on the other, for precisely this purpose, for US$25. You’ll spend a lot more than that on separate cables, and it really minimizes the spaghetti factor. Might not be the highest quality, low capacitance cable, but should be just fine for a 6-foot run.
Otherwise, as mentioned above, if you’re using normal 1/4" instrument cables, just plug half-way into the insert jacks. (That’s on most mixers – some are different and you’ll need a special cable like the Hosa which works the same regardless of how the mixer is wired.) The half-way insertion works for mixers where ring is send and tip is receive, which most of them are but there’s no industry standard.
Above, someone said that you cannot mix from stage. Well, it can be done. It’s not the best way, but it’s been done and reasonably well. But you want to avoid that whenever possible. After all, playing drums is impossible, yet most drummers somehow manage to do it!
Found it:
Hosa Snake
Thanks Jeff! I would’ve had a mass off individual cables if not for you.
Wihan… So then, the insert jack is like having a seperate input-jack and output-jack that are constantly hooked together until you plug something in. Makes perfect sense now! Thank you!
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| It’s a VERY good idea to have two separate mixers, one for house and one for recording. (But only if you need to submix, as I mentioned earlier.) |
Well… That’s kind of where I started with this topic… How would I use one mixer for recording and a seperate one for FOH?
Also... Has anyone tried mixing down a song externally instead of using n-Track's mixer? I guess it could be done with a multiple output card, right? Is there a difference in the sound?
No, but I've mixed a gig through my soundcard's control panel, back when I had an ISIS that had hardware monitoring of every channel.
Willy.
No, but I've mixed a gig through my soundcard's control panel, back when I had an ISIS that had hardware monitoring of every channel.
Willy.
| Quote (learjeff @ Mar. 30 2005,11:46) |
| What's the lineup? 3 piece with only one vocalist? If so, then 8 channels should be fine with no submixing. That leaves 4 mikes for drums and one for house. |
inputs:
1 acoustic guitar
1 mic'd electric
1 bass
3 vocal mics
1 kick drum mic
1 snare/highhat
Most times, the drums probably don't even need to be mic'd. But... I can see how a 16 channel mixer would be better for recording than an 8! Would be nice to:
2-Throw a couple of overheads on the drums
1-point a mic at the acoustic guitar?
2-point two mics at the house for stereo crowd noises (edit out the boos and hisses, of course!)
I recorded our entire live album with a MOTU 828MKII, my Mackie mixer & my custom made DAW.