On-Location recording

Quote (Mr Soul @ Mar. 30 2005,15:59)
I recorded our entire live album with a MOTU 828MKII, my Mackie mixer & my custom made DAW.

Cool! Did you run FOH through your Mackie or did you have a seperate mixer? Tell us a bit about your setup... How do you like the MOTU? I'm thinking I might be buying one in a week or so if this voice in my head keeps nagging me. :laugh:
Did you run FOH through your Mackie or did you have a seperate mixer?
Here's my setup:

- 2 guitars mics directly into the MOTU
- 2 drums mics directly into the MOTU
- 2 vocal mics, 1 acoustic guitar & 1 kick drum directly off my effects loop patch on each mic channel (I only have a VLZ1202 Mackie mixer).

I believe MOTU has a newer interface than the one I actually used. It worked well although sometimes my machine would not recognize the device, i.e., it stopped transmitting signal via the FireWire. This didn't happen when I actually did the recording.

nTrack recognized the device & worked well with it. This was the recording that I let run for 3 one hours sets if you recall that thread. It worked like a charm.

I definitely like the flexibility/capabilitiy of the MOTU device, i.e., FireWire, etc.

I wanted to build one of my cube DAWs (see my web site) for doing remote recordings, along with a MOTU.

Does this answer all your questions?

John, that’s probably the best lineup for 8 channels and that act. Submixes can be a real headache – you never get them quite right. This way, you’ll be soft on the toms but fine everywhere else. I find enough cymbals comes through other mikes, especially with 3 vocal mikes. Far better to have a stereo overhead and a couple tom mikes, but then you need more than 8 tracks, or else a submix. Consider using a single overhead rather close to the snare rather than right on the snare.

I can see you’re going to have to do without the house mike – just don’t expect the crowd noise to sound quite right at the ends.

Simplest setup with two mixers uses two of those Hosa cables. Plug mikes into house mixer. Plug inserts from first mixer into line inputs on recording mixer. Plug inserts from recording mixer into soundcard (except for submix tracks, which are fed from the recording mixer’s group outputs). However, if you’re not doing any submixes for drums, there’s no need for the recording mixer.

For a small gig like this, if you have a sound guy who really has a clue or two, and a mixer like those mentioned above, it’s possible to use the same mixer for house and recording. But this gets confusing! You have to really know the mixer well, and practice a bit with a mock setup to make sure everything’s going where you expect it to.

Hold de phone – I believe the MOTU 828 mkII has 10 channels. You have two extra mike inputs. My 828 (old version) only has 8, so I forgot. Now you’re in trouble! Gotta figure out just what to use 'em on! I suggest one mike on the house, if there’s going to be a good crowd at all. The other could go on drums (opposite side from snare, and move snare closer).

Another nice thing to have when you have the channel is a mike fairly close to the stage, pointed at it, to get the guitar, bass, and drums all together. Sometimes this helps as a reference, sometimes as something to help enhance the image, and sometimes just to figure out how loud that #### guitarist really is or whatever. You also use this track to synchronize all the other mikes in the timeline to minimize phase cancellation problems – but that’s an advanced topic.

The 828 mkII kicks ass. I’ve never heard anything bad about 'em. Mac has one and says very good things about it. If you have the cash, go for it. You won’t regret it. Plus, just add an ADAT converter and now you have 18 input! Way cool! :cool: :D

Mr. Soul, the 828 only has 2 mike preamps.

2 mike inputs.
8 line inputs.
10 in all.

Use 'em!

Oops – John, that’s not quite the right snake. Notice it only has 4 plugs on one side. You want one with 8 plugs on both ends, yet one end is all TRS plugs (with T and R shorted). Maybe that’s what I saw and didn’t notice it was the right item; I’ll look again.

If we can’t find one with TRS on one end and TS on the other, just use an 8-channel with TS on both ends and only plug it in halfway.

I’m very cautious in my post right now, as I still think jeff has the best (ideal) solution.

All I’m saying (while not disagreeing with him) is that it is possible (and you get good results with an easier/cheaper setup) using one mixer with inserts to do recording and house mix on.

Especially if you’re the guy thats going to do the mixing as well…

Yeah, two mixers are better, but it complicates things, and make it more expensive. I’ve done a live recording about a month ago with:

2 Vocal mics
1 Accoustic guitar
1 Nylon string guitar
1 mic on percussion (conga’s, shaker etc)
1 keyboard
1 bass guitar

I’ve done it using that mixer that i send the link about and using the cables that has tip and ring shorted, while doing the house mix at the same time.

What made it easier was my 19" monitor. I had the Delta1010’s control panel open in the bottom half of the screen so I could see what the card receives, and I had N-Track streched wide on the top half of the screen.
I only recorded max 8 tracks per project, so I didn’t need it to be full screen.

So (with respect to Jeff (can you tell I’m cautious about this :p )) the two mixer idea is better, but it can also be done (satisfactorily) with only one mixer set up properly.
Just so that you know you have a choice.

If you buy the mixer and start working that way, even if you do a studio recording after that, you can link it the same way to your PC, and then you’ll have a ‘monitor mix’ instead of a FOH mix using your mixer…

Wihan

Edit:/

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Quote
Maybe I should just get a small mixer to use on gigs where the PA is one of theose combo PA/AMP deals - use my mixer to mix FOH (send main outs from my mixer to one channel on the PA) and send indivdual channels to the recorder via the inserts.
On gigs where the FOH has inserts, I could just plug straight from them into the recorder.


What you said here will work.
Mr. Soul, the 828 only has 2 mike preamps.

Correction - I used a 2002 896, not an 828. It had 8 inputs, dual line & mic. It worked great with the exceptions I noted. It would record in 44.1 or 96 and perhaps higher.

I used the mixer for my stage sound but got a direct line of 4 channels by pluging 1/2 way into my board (as Mackie recommends doing). This works just fine. I didn't have any submixes to contend with. I mixed my record at playback time in nTrack with absolutely full control & no problems.

I recorded an entire 3 set gig with 44.1/24-bit. I have a live CD that I sell as proof. If anyone wants a copy, they are $6, plus $2 in shipping. You can order them from my web site.

Sorry Mr. Soul, I though you were suggesting but you certainly did say “my setup”.

And yes, Ali, we’re in violent agreement there about mixing from the stage. Perhaps the best way to put it is “It’s much, much better to mix from FOH than from the stage”.

Using one mixer can work, and it’s also very easy if you don’t need any submixes. It’s best to avoid needing submixes (because the submix is hard to get right in a noisy bar). But they’re sometimes the best compromise when you don’t have enough channels. With a drum kit, 8 is rarely enough, so you get a choice bewteen two kinds of compromises: not enough drum mikes, or doing a submix. You’re kinda hosed either way. To put it better: you can make great recordings either way, but experience matters a lot more than if you have a track per mike.

Plugging a cable half-way in isn’t quite as bad as you might think. First of all, it’s not just ‘resting’ half-way in where a very slight nudge would affect it. The “ring” contact nestles rather firmly in the indentation in the plug’s tip. It’s only when the plug is all the way in and pushes the jack’s tip contact aside that breaks the default short from tip to ring.

Concerning driving two line inputs from one output, which is a reasonable concern:

Back in the 70’s and 80’s, line outputs used to be very carefully specified with a “minimum load impedance” or “maximum load impedance”, both of which meant the exact same thing: its the lowest impedance value for the biggest load the output can drive without exceeding its rated output current and overheating. Typical values were 10Kohms. On reasonabl quality gear (in the semi-pro category, like TASCAM), the impedance of line inputs were usually 20K. This meant that you could safely drive two outputs from one input all day without causing any harm or degrading the signal in any meaningful way. (I believe it attenuates it 3 dB, but I’m not sure about that.)

These days, how much gear do you see that’s rated with min/max load impedance? Very little, because the drivers now are self-limiting, and can sink more current safely than the old TTL-based ones. It should generally be safe and sound and good practice to feed two line inputs from one line output. If not, thow the gear away because it’s shite. Even Behringer mixers with inserts will run all day this way without harm. They know we’re doing this. It’s OK, really!

However, there’s still the issue that it looks sloppy, gets in the way of seeing the other plugs (sometimes), and some do-gooder might do you a favor and push them all the way snug. Or that know-it-all “leaner” who was standing in front of you (blockin your view of the stage) while telling you how much better his gear is, might turn around to chat up some chick and lean back on your board, pusing those plugs in. So, I agree it’s not the best solution.

Hosa does not make a TRS to TS snake (nor does anyone as far as I know). I emailed them with the suggestion and they got right back to me and said they’d discuss it in their next product meeting. (!) Also, they pointed out that they do have two products to serve the purpose (used in conjunction with an unbalanced 8-channel snake).

pigtail adaptor
GPP-419: mono-stereo adaptor.

So, if you don’t want to leave the cable out half-assed, just pick up 8 of either of the above. (Note: the titles on the web pages are a bit misleading, but they do just what we want.)

my fingers hurt, i think i’ll stop typing now

Well… I finally bit the bullet and spent the money:

Here’s what I ordered:

MOTU 828MKII

Hosa 1/4 mono to 1/4 mono 8-ch snake

And eight of these little babies so I don’t have to worry about the half-in half-out method of tapping the inserts!

…And some patch cables.


I’m holding off a bit on the mixer until I can figure out exactly what my needs will be. I’m pretty sure it’s going to be one of these:

Soundcraft Spirit E12
(no built in FX, but aren’t these supposed to be really nice sounding mixers?)


Yahmaha MG166FX
(built in FX but only 10 mic pre-amps. How does the sound stack up against the Soundcraft?)


Jeff – Thanks for all of your wisdom and input, and especially for pointing me to the insert adapters!

Everyone, thanks again for all the great advice!

-John

:cool:

Hey John,

That sounds like a sweet setup and very similar to what I have been considering for a semi-portable rig. Betcha like it a lot.

I have heard REALLY GOOD things about the Soundcraft ES series. These were mostly magazine reviews and a few forum reviews I’ve read. The lack of effects would not be a concern at all for me. Your case might be different. The Yammys also get good reviews so I don’t think you’ll do wrong with either choice.

TG

Quote (gtr4him @ April 01 2005,11:28)
That sounds like a sweet setup and very similar to what I have been considering for a semi-portable rig. Betcha like it a lot.

I don't have it yet... I just ordered all the junk today. I need some Rolaids, my GAS is getting the best of me. :D

Er… did you say GAS or CASH?? :p :p

CASH will ease the GAS pains better’n Rolaids! Spare cash is hard to come by though… :(

TG

Well, the choice of the soundcraft puts you above the rest of us with berry 2442s (although, I see there’s enough of us to kick your arse anyway!). Looks like a nice desk.

On a side note, picked up a patchbay today, and put a “hold” on a new guitar.

Quote (Willy @ April 01 2005,14:56)
Well, the choice of the soundcraft puts you above the rest of us with berry 2442s (although, I see there's enough of us to kick your arse anyway!).

And that is the whole point of it all anyway, yes? :D

BWHAHAHAHA!

Seriously though, I've always figured that if I was going to spend $X on a purchase that it is best to spend ($X + a little more) for better quality stuff.

:cool:
:;):


Oh yes... I just won the auction for this:


SoundCraft Spirit Fx16 Mixer


New this goes for about $1,000. I got it for $530 plus shipping...

I was thinking about a different Soundcraft board that sells for $430, but then I would need an outboard reverb unit (at least $100) if I wanted to use it live. The mixer I'm getting has a built-in Lexicon FX unit, and also 16 actual channels with mic pre's. I think it's also got a direct out on each channel in addition to the insert jack. Neato.

:)

GOOD SCORE JP!!

That should be a sweet unit. I read some info on it HERE it appears to be ideal for location recording purposes.

The direct outs are switchable pre or post fader. Make 'em pre-fader, setup your channel input trims to get a good level on your MOTU, setup your FOH/Monitor mix and GO!

TG

:angry:

Ahhh.... Dammit. Look at the invoice this turkey sent me today:


Here's the invoice for your item, kurfu!
Dear kurfu. Thank you for your purchase. The total for your item below is US $1,110.00.
Pay Now
Click Pay Now to confirm shipping, get total price, and arrange payment through: PayPal.
Item # Item Title Qty. Price
7311338067 SoundCraft Spirit Fx16 Mixer 1 US $530.00


Subtotal: US $530.00
Shipping and handling via Standard Flat Rate Shipping Service:
US $25.00
Shipping insurance (required): US $555.00
Total: US $1,110.00



What's wrong with this picture? Anyone?
Of course I didn't send him any money yet.


I sent him an email telling him to either fix the total or cancel the transaction. I'm hoping it's an honest mistake. We'll see.



:angry:

Sheesh, John! That’s the stupidest attempt at a scam I’ve seen in a long time. Of course, you won’t pay. But he’ll still have to pay for the ebay listing. Be sure to report this to ebay.

Too bad you can’t leave feedback until after paying. I don’t know whether you can pay just a penny and leave feedback.