Pope John has passed on

Quote (silvermachina @ April 02 2005,22:04)
[quote=phoo,April 02 2005,21:39] If you spent half as much time playing guitar as you do kissing eachothers asses you might have a music career.

This seems like a statement from someone who hasn't listened to phoo's music to me, and pretty much knows nothing about his carreer or talent either.

I agree that this shure seems like a bad time, to metioning ones dislike for the Catholic, church and/ or their doctrin, ereally pizz poor taste IMHO.
Their may be people here who agree or disagrree with you staments machina, but this hardly seem an appropriete time to discuss such matters.
I man has died, and I's say as fellow human beings we owe him the diginity at least to die in peace.

Best wishes, silver, and God Bless on your journey.

jerm

One thing this old fart is learning is that it is best to repsect the theological beliefs of other people (unless human sacrifice is involved, why waste a perfectly good virgin?!?), even when they don’t agree with yours. Your age is definetly showing here, Silver.

Also… You crossed the line when you started attacking peoples musical endevours on this side of the board. It was uncalled for.

Quote (silvermachina @ April 03 2005,12:19)
Okay since I'm being attacked anyway...then yeah, fuck the pope and fuck the Catholic religion. I'm a bigot? That whole faith is foul. I've spent my life surrounded by Catholics (dads family), born agains (my coke-head mother), Jehovah's witnesses (my wife!), Mormons (my best friend became one and refused to speak to me), and Jews (I was going to #### because I got Christmas presents), and I've never experienced anything but judgemental hatred toward people who have done nothing to them. I don't say that to get a pat on the back, but its the truth. I know all of these fucked up people in my life that think because they are into religion that it changes their final destination. Organized religion is corrupt...not me. I love everyone, even the ignorant, but I won't defend the fickle. The only judge here is the big guy upstairs and I'm not playing a game to win his heart. Thats all this bullshit is, a game, a competition against the everyone in the human race...and no one ever wins, or ever will. Do yourself a favor and read the whole bible, cover to cover...10 times if you have to. You might get it then.

This always amazes me. You hear things like this all the time ...this group of people in my life was this and that group of people in my life was that...and that's why I hate this and the person making the statement never sees that they themselves are the only common factor.

If you've got "this farked up group of people" and "that farked up group of people" in your life don't you think the obvious question should be: "What is it about me that attracts these people into my life?" I mean, okay, your parents I guess you had no influence in that - but your wife, your friends? There's a certain amount of choice there.

As people here can no doubt tell you - I am no fan of organized religion either. But you really need to look at your own role in how your life has played out.

Bill, real good master of your own destiny stuff there!
Regardless of how corrupt religion can get, isn’t it what’s in the peoples hearts that matter? After all their intentions are good no? They are trying to live a better life, and uphold a certain moral principles? --this make them bad how?
Silver, you atually remind me of Jesus in a way…and I know this is a stretch guys…but bear with me a second if you will.
Jesus stormed into the Sinagog and turned the scribes tables over, nocking all the money off them. The rage displayed from His discust of what religion had become, nothing more than a buy-in. Siting the pharosies with hypocracy, and he made no apologies for his behavior later.
That’s how my Savior felt about the church of his time, so it’s no evil deed in my mind if one should find simularites in the churches of today, and react accordingly.
The only problem I ever had with silver, is just lack of respect. There really isn’t that much of an age difference between us two, but on a maturity level I’d say there’s a gap somewhere. I feel everybody should be treated as equals, regardless of there place on the todem pole, but that’s just another gezzer of 30 talking again I guess…lol

Again, Pope John Paul, RIP, your influence on this planet has not gone un-noticed.
Best wishes again to you Big K, and God bless
you and your music career, but remember no amount of success is going to fill the void within.

jerm

Quote (nergle @ April 03 2005,14:32)
But, as TG continually points out, I'm a nut too, so what the ####! As long as we're all happy nuts. :D

There are different varieties of nuts. Ali dude is of the good natured variety. :)

But if your religion causes you to spew hatred, then IMO, there's something seriously wrong with either you, or your religion, or both.


Yes definitely.

TG

FWIW, Im an aethiest tho I never had issues with good hearted religous people. If I had known someone here would be so offended for just offering condolences of anyone who meant a lot to other people out of courtesy, I wouldve not posted in here.
Sorry to everyone in this forum for creating this ruckus.

Hi aspiringWanderer…and Everyone:
It’s rare that I post on topics like this… But, it’s a tough tongue to bite, especially when there’s so little flavor in it…

You said…
" If I had known someone here would be so offended for just offering condolences of anyone who meant a lot to other people out of courtesy, I wouldve not posted in here.
Sorry to everyone in this forum for creating this ruckus ".

A lot more ruckus has been created on this Board for saying a whole lot less…

Goodness knows… I’ve posted things up here, in the past …I love to take back…

Sometimes, when we’re not feeling as well as we should we lash out at others with our words… Then, when we feel better we are sorry for what we said but, by that time, it’s too late to take it back…

Sometimes the tongue gets in the way of the teeth… Or is it the other way around? :O ???

Bill…

Hey I even read today that PJP II even thought Darwin’s Theory of Evolution was credible. Oh boy, oh boy. :laugh:

I’m gonna miss this Pope. He was a mountain climber too.

Quote (Mr Soul @ April 03 2005,21:47)
Hey I even read today that PJP II...

I always liked to refer to him as J2P2.

I guess you'd have to be a Star Wars fan to get it.
Quote (jeremysdemo @ April 03 2005,17:47)
Bill, real good master of your own destiny stuff there!
Regardless of how corrupt religion can get, isn't it what's in the peoples hearts that matter? After all their intentions are good no? They are trying to live a better life, and uphold a certain moral principles? --this make them bad how?

For my part, absolutely nothing against the people. People are drawn to what they are drawn to and for whatever reasons.

I just think it is extremely difficult to grow spiritually within the confines of organized religion. Not impossible but extremely difficult. And I think many people in the various hierarchies of the various churches are fully aware of this (or ought to be) and don't really care about the spiritual growth of their various flocks.

Was John Paul II one such person? I don't know; no way I can know.

But everything I have heard or read about the man leads me to conclude that he had real faith and tremendous courage. The world needs more, not fewer, people like that so I mourn his passing.
But everything I have heard or read about the man leads me to conclude that he had real faith and tremendous courage. The world needs more, not fewer, people like that so I mourn his passing.

Man I can agree with that!! I don't know much about the Catholic faith, but I believe PJPII understood this to the letter:

Matthew 22:36-39 --
36"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" 37Jesus said to him, ""You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like it: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

We are commanded to love all.

TG

Well, are “real faith” and “tremendous courage” enough? Obviously not. Jesus never believed that, and the Bible teaches us that not only faith but action is required of us. Otherwise, what’s the point? I can be as pious as the next person, while 3/4 of the people in the world are starving to death. Actions are necessary. Bill, this Pope’s legacy is easy to discover. How many people here think that God requires us to discriminate on the basis of sex? How many people think that Bishops ought to be excommunicated for arguing that the church ought to serve the poor? How many thing that God wants us to protect child molesters?

We cannot be afraid to criticize anyone, the Pope or the Dali Lama included; this does not mean that we should be happy that someone had died, but just because it is the Pope (or the President - remember how many people tried to rehabilitate Nixon, re-write his legacy, when he died? He was a criminal, that’s all there is to it), doesn’t mean that we should give up our judgment.

Quote (John @ April 03 2005,15:12)
(unless human sacrifice is involved, why waste a perfectly good virgin?!?)

Eh, but it is always so akward your first time. I dunno. But I agree with your intention... throwing hot chicks in volcanos is severly backwards. :D
Quote (TomS @ April 04 2005,10:06)
Well, are "real faith" and "tremendous courage" enough? Obviously not. Jesus never believed that, and the Bible teaches us that not only faith but action is required of us. Otherwise, what's the point? I can be as pious as the next person, while 3/4 of the people in the world are starving to death. Actions are necessary. Bill, this Pope's legacy is easy to discover. How many people here think that God requires us to discriminate on the basis of sex? How many people think that Bishops ought to be excommunicated for arguing that the church ought to serve the poor? How many thing that God wants us to protect child molesters?

We cannot be afraid to criticize anyone, the Pope or the Dali Lama included; this does not mean that we should be happy that someone had died, but just because it is the Pope (or the President - remember how many people tried to rehabilitate Nixon, re-write his legacy, when he died? He was a criminal, that's all there is to it), doesn't mean that we should give up our judgment.

How easy would it have been for John Paul II to cave in and allow women to be ordained or to voice support for condom use or say that women should be allowed to have abortions?

It would cost him nothing personally and he would have gone done in history as a greater reformer than John XXIII. But he didn't do it. And I can assume that he didn't do those things because he did not believe they were right. That's courage.

Not because I agreed with him - in fact, I don't. Courage is sticking to your core beliefs even when everyone else disagrees with you.

You want action? He asked for pardon for centuries of abuse of Jews, women and minorities. He went to Israel and left a written request for pardon at the Wailing Wall. Opening up his beloved Church to all kinds of litigation and criticism by admitting their errors. I can't think of another Pope who ever took such bold action.

He prayed with his would-be assassin and then forgave him.

This was not some pious hermit doing nothing in a cave, this was a man of action. His actions may not have been those that you or I or millions of others wanted him to take but were the actions that he believed he should take.
FWIW, Im an aethiest tho I never had issues with good hearted religous people. If I had known someone here would be so offended for just offering condolences of anyone who meant a lot to other people out of courtesy, I wouldve not posted in here.
Sorry to everyone in this forum for creating this ruckus.

Wanderer, you did not start this ruckus.

It's the nature of this "Anything else" forum I'm afraid; we all love music, but we all love to argue even more, so dinna fass yirsel' laddie. :D


Sometimes, when we're not feeling as well as we should we lash out at others with our words.. Then, when we feel better we are sorry for what we said but, by that time, it's too late to take it back..


Wise words Bill Wox, and I know that in my own case, although I ignored his first few posts, they still bothered me.

I've seen enough religious hatred and its consequences, to abhor it.

But ignore it I did anyway, until he started with the "fucks" and "ass-lickers" directed at members of this forum; (and that was all of us who had posted on the first page); and then when he later tried to come across as a poor victimised martyr, that did for me I'm afraid. :(

So even if he's not guilty of writing in anger, I certainly was.

Anyway, I 'spect Silver will be back, if for no other reason than to annoy Jerm! :p

We cannot be afraid to criticize anyone, the Pope or the Dali Lama included;

That's true Tom, but I'd add; only if one is prepared to subject one's own religion to equally critical analysis too; otherwise it's just plain bigotry.

Ali
Okay since I'm being attacked anyway... ...I've never experienced anything but judgemental hatred toward people who have done nothing to them. I don't say that to get a pat on the back... ...Do yourself a favor and read the whole bible, cover to cover...10 times if you have to. You might get it then.

...and as a favor to all of YOU bigots... ...I'm not into wasting my time arguing because you can't handle my statements as much as I can handle yours... ...But you guys shit stones whenever I open my mouth, wether it be in a guitar forum or a religion forum. Guess I've spent too much time at the siva site. Poof. Gone.

OK...I sort of started this by being offended and saying something about it. After a day to think about it, I've come to the conclusion that I should apologize to everyone that was offended by my saying that I was offended by silvermacho's original statement that he was "glad the pope was dead and good riddance" (paraphrased because I don't have the exact words). And, no there was no reference to the Chatholic Church - it was directed only at the man as an individual that had died.

I must say I'm still offended by his original post, and if anyone else were to say the same thing I'd probably still respond the same way.

By striking back the way he did Silver obviously has a lot of issues that aren't obvious when reading his other posts, or someone has been sending him PMs that have caused him to put all of us in a shit can together. I don't know why he sees all the other posts as shitting stones. I really don't understand his reaction to my flame by putting everyone else in my boat. Either he stands by his comments or he doesn't. I'm fine with either. I'm not fine with him dragging everyone else in on it. He's free to flame me all he want, or anyone else that want's to argue, but don't drag in the innocent.

I know he got fired from his job last week...lost his job...I don't know that he was fired, but the post where he mentions it doesn't sound like he wanted to leave. Maybe we should give him some slack if it's nothing more than a bad hair week.

DEUS, qui corda fidelium Sancti Spiritus illustratione docuisti: da nobis in eodem Spiritu recta sapere, et de eius semper consolatione gaudere. Per Christum Dominum nostrum.

Amen.

Rest in Peace John Paul II.

.-=/gp=-.

I know he got fired from his job last week...lost his job...I don't know that he was fired, but the post where he mentions it doesn't sound like he wanted to leave. Maybe we should give him some slack if it's nothing more than a bad hair week.

Yeah, you're probably right Phoo. Better flaming us than smashing his guitar up or summat.

So, come back Silver, all is forgiven, we all have our bad days. :)

(But next time, please don't call me an ass-licker or a member of someone's clique. I am neither; and occasionally I react very negatively to personal insults. :D)

Ali

Of course all is forgiven, but dude…chill out eh? There was absolutely no reason to go off like that. There is certainly NOTHING said on here to get your blood pressure up over. :)

TG

How easy would it have been for John Paul II to cave in and allow women to be ordained or to voice support for condom use or say that women should be allowed to have abortions?

It would cost him nothing personally and he would have gone done in history as a greater reformer than John XXIII. But he didn't do it. And I can assume that he didn't do those things because he did not believe they were right. That's courage.

Not because I agreed with him - in fact, I don't. Courage is sticking to your core beliefs even when everyone else disagrees with you.

You want action? He asked for pardon for centuries of abuse of Jews, women and minorities. He went to Israel and left a written request for pardon at the Wailing Wall. Opening up his beloved Church to all kinds of litigation and criticism by admitting their errors. I can't think of another Pope who ever took such bold action.

He prayed with his would-be assassin and then forgave him.

This was not some pious hermit doing nothing in a cave, this was a man of action. His actions may not have been those that you or I or millions of others wanted him to take but were the actions that he believed he should take.



In that sense of courage we'd have to say that some very evil people had courage. That seems to divorce the idea from any moral basis. That may fit Machievellian notions of virtue, but it certainly doesn't fit Greek notions. Courage exercised foolishly is foolishness. Additionally, you are wrong, I think, in saying that changing the role women have would have been the easier path, much less say anything positive about abortion or contraception. Within the Catholic church such would have caused remarkable problems for him. And that would have taken courage.

Vatican II addressed the problems of the myth of supersession and the relationship between Catholics, Jews, Hindus, and so on. That was nearly 40 years ago. An apology? That's good, but it's not action. Consider the church's role in the Holocaust, and then think about what might constitute a proportionate response. More than an apology.

Forgiving a would be assassin? I suppose that's something, but it really is not much. Billions of "ordinary" people do the same every day, for even greater wrongs.

His opposition to the death penalty, on the other hand, has been for the good, and that deserves our praise. Did you see Helen Prejean's article in the NY Times on this?

Nergle - you bet - one's own views need to be examined even more carefully than other's.

edit: here is Prejean's article:

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/index.php?id=2083