about keys, charts etc…
Okay, so I am attempting to learn a bit of music theory and stuff. I was kind of pushed into this because at my church, we use fake sheets with Nashville Numbers. We never know what key the leader of a particular song will want. So I had to learn my way around the Major scale and “Nashville numbers”.
So here is my question; This song I have partially pieced together has a chord progression like this:
G - Eb - Bb - D
for the intro and the bulk of the choruses. I am still experimenting with the verses so that’s kind of “open” for now.
What correct KEY would this be? There are two flats so I thought okay B-flat. Yeah that fits… but when I write it out in numbers it is;
6 - 4 - 1 - 3
Usually in “pop” music 6 and 3 are minor though not always. I am not playing them as minor chords. (Not yet anyway…)
If I say it’s the key of G, it would have to be charted thus;
1 - b6 - b3 - 5
Which I would instantly understand but my fellow musicians would go "What’s that “b” number mumbo jumbo?"
What is it? I know G Minor is the harmonic minor for B flat?
Ugh… I’m coming to grips with this stuff but occasionally I hit a bend in the road…
D
you are confused, sir, beacuse technically speaking it’s not exactly in one key.
it’s an amalgam of 2 keys. based on the chord pattern given in that order, an assuming that because it’s in that order the piece is ‘centered’ on G, and wants to resolve to G, it is primarily G major, with two ‘borrowed’ chords (Bb and Eb) from what could be considered g minor (blues feel) or borrowed from Bb major. More correct to say g minor. This isn’t an unheard-of trick. If there is a recurring melody, that will help to ascertain the change.
It is also a common pop practice to make every chord in a pattern major, even if diatonically they should be minor or otherwise. A common blues practice is to use a bunch of major chords then solo/melody in the (parallel) minor key, so the melody over this pattern would be in g-minor for example.
i’m sure this only served to confuse you further. For simplicity’s sake, it should be thought of as G major. I hope I didn’t make your head explode, D, with all the needless rambling.
Quote:
i'm sure this only served to confuse you further. For simplicity's sake, it should be thought of as G major. I hope I didn't make your head explode, D, with all the needless rambling.
Actually, you didn't confuse at all. Rather cleared up the murk a bit. I now remember reading a bit somewhere about what you just wrote. See, I was thinking to myself; "Self? The "tonal center" of this darn thing is G doggone it!" I was actually trying to over complicate the issue I think.
Thanks for the help!
D
PS When finished, I'll write it out 1 - b6 - b3 - 5 then 'SPLAIN it to 'em...
All the pickers I used to use had somewhat different variations of their own to note a minor etc. - most use a - line, that’s what I use, some use a small m next to the number. So my noting system writes all numbers as major, noting minors with a -line and flats with a flat symbol - sharps with sharp symbol.
I solved the problem at church with letter noted lyric sheets by simple getting good at math - adding and subtracting on the fly.
Here’s a good explanation though. Nashville # system.
i was trained in the classical system using roman numerals, capital=major/lowercase=minor
so the diatonic chords of G major are:
G Am Bm C D Em F#dim
I ii iii IV V vi vii
°
and G minor:
Gm Adim Bb Cm Dm Eb F
i ii
° III iv v VI VII
If you mix ‘n’ match these parallel keys, like putting ‘III’ while in G major, it’s understood that you’re borrowing a Bb major chord from the Gminor key, not B major. That would be written another way that takes more explaining. Thus, your chord progression of G - Eb - Bb - D in G major would be noted: I VI III V. i know this was unsolicited and that i get like this usually after a few beers, but i guess I’m just overtired and dehydrated after basketball. good night, all.
Now I’m totally confused!
Thanks for the link Poppa. I see stuff noted just like you said. A few guys from our main church campus are Nashville “veterans” and they spit out a lot of the charts we use. I can follow their stuff pretty good not perfect mind you but enough that I can bash my through a tune even if I haven’t played it before. In CCM there is usually a “formula” for a song that fits the “style” if you know what I mean. For example Paul Baloche… my bud brought in a new song for us to learn. He pops it into the CD player and hit play, 5.734 seconds later I said “Ah! Another Paul Baloche tune eh?” LOL… Paul LOVES the key of E and extensive use of open strings…
You guys have been a lot of help. I think the evolving melody of the tune I mentioned in my first post will dictate where it goes. I am thinking it’s going to end up in Gm since the “tone center” is G and I am dropping some flatted thirds in my melody riff… I’m still goobing around with it.
D
PS Yaz if you’re confused, then I am totally bewildered… 
good grief…i thought the circle of fifths was complicated…now the nashville system…??
40 years of reading music and i always did wonder what the roman numerals meant…
obviously, i have a lot to learn…
cliff
I hear you Cliff. You can imagine the bewildered look on my face when the aforementioned Nashville dudes dropped one of their “numbered” charts on my music stand! “What? Hey you forgot to write the geetar chords on here!?!?!?” LOL…
It has been interesting but very rewarding learning to work this way though. I have most common keys nailed pretty good. A little practice goes a long way…
D
As a hard-core Schenkerian I don’t have to worry about all that stuff, since it is a well-known fact that all progressions can be resolved into a I-V-I progression.
So there.
I have an idea… (groan)
Name every song in pop music history that follows the 1-6-5-4 progression. (In “C” that would be C-Am-G-F.)
I’ll check back in three years to see if you are finished!
A guy pointed that out to me and I sez “Huh?” Think about it though… gazillions of 'em. There really is nothing “new” under the sun?
D
First one I learned was “Young Love” by Sonny James.
They say for every boy and girl…
I can think of at least a dozen 1-6-5-4’s in our catalog at church. Don’t ask for titles though… (Alzheimers) but I know’s em when I see’s em… Piles and piles…
What about 1-4-5’s? Wow. Almost every dang blues tune ever written! LOL…
We need to add an “H note” or something… maybe take up Far Eastern Microtonal stuff. Pass that pipe Omar… 
D
OK so what would House of the Rising Sun be? Twas my first song.
Am,C,D,F
Am,C,E
Am,C,D,F
Am,E
I think that’s right. Been a long time. Oh wait a sec, they’re Brits, so it’s always backwards, nevermind!
I think all the Creedence songs fall in a single catagory!
Quote: (Yaz @ Jul. 09 2008, 7:46 PM)
OK so what would House of the Rising Sun be? Twas my first song.
What a great song! ...One of my favourite songs to sing
Well, as a hard-core Shenkerian, I can only say that HotRS is I-V-I.
Man, I am going to work that joke until someone laughs!
HAW!!!
There. Next.
lol
Quote: (Yaz @ Jul. 09 2008, 10:46 AM)
OK so what would House of the Rising Sun be? Twas my first song.
Am,C,D,F
Am,C,E
Am,C,D,F
Am,E
I think that's right. Been a long time. Oh wait a sec, they're Brits, so it's always backwards, nevermind!
I think all the Creedence songs fall in a single catagory!
1m - 3 - 4 - 6
1m - 3 - 5
1m - 3 - 4 - 6
1m - 5
Since it has the A minor tonality, I'd say HotRS is in A Minor. Somebody correct me if I have wrong!! Learning here...
All Creedence song fit in the EXCELLENT category regardless of their key.
D
BTW Tom…
I read the WHOLE THING now I have a I-V-I rhythmic pounding in my head…
D- off to find the Tylenol…
PS Despite the cranial discomfort induced, thanks for the nudge Tom. I had no idea what you were talking about! Looked it up, learned something. You dad-burn edgamacators…