If you’re not suggesting it then I guess I don’t know what “Paradigmatic example of mythmaking” means 
I’m still trying to put it all together I guess.
Mike, I am not JUST suggesting it, I am arguing that it is true.
That word “just” needs to included in the sentence…
“Search the scriptures; for in them you think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” - John 5:39 (Red Letters)
I love seven’s take on Jesus, and totally agree with D that we shouldn’t be so easily offended. I also agree whole heartedly with Tom that the Sermon on the Mount is not given its due. Or not often enough, anyway. I’m not big on denominations, even those who claim not to be a denomination. I don’t view the Church as a conquering army, but just friends who find themselves sharing the same foxhole now and then.
I keep seeing “The Suffering Messiah” and think it must be the name of the next new greatest band there ever was…
I have read the thread and am up to date.
I know Tom will say “that is not authentic Y’shua” and he may be right at least if we are using the synoptic as a gauge but I will post anyhow for Mikes sake.
Matthew 26:28
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
John 15:13
"Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends."
Now I would suggest also considering a passage from the OT and one according to some accounts Y’shua quoted.
Matthew 9:13
"Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners."
A bit from Hosea 6:6.
IF you think about this last one, I mean REALLY think about it, Mercy, is a form of sacrifice, since a person has to sacrifice something of himself in order to give mercy to another.
IT is not often easy, and it comes at a cost, but one worth paying since the reward is great IMHO.
Apply that concept to anyone who has ever wronged you, and if you are courageous enough to the one who has done something that you think you can never forgive them for, and you will learn what it means.
keep shinin’
jerm 
Tom - I hear you loud & clear on the resurrection.
So what exactly did the people who “witnessed” it see?
Did they all dream it or did it come from one myth?
It’s true Paul’s account of it was different than the Gospels, which leads me to believe that there were varying stories.
D - you’re right about Matthew Chapter 22. In fact, our pastor re-iterates those words every Sunday, just so we don’t forget.
Phoo: you’re right - it would be a good name for band!
Grab it!
Jerem - I forgot to comment on Matthew 26:28. Are we sure that Jesus’s was saying that his main role was to to die for our sins? If so, then this is the only time Jesus came close to saying anything remotely about he being the “suffering Messiah”.
Matthew 16 is a good read on this topic too Mike - when Jesus began to tell them (the disciples) what his real mission was… to go to Jerusalem and “suffer many things” - it was so opposed to what the Jewish traditional view of the Messiah had become. That’s where, if you might recall, Peter actually rebuked him for saying such things, and Jesus got hot and called Peter Satan himself. So historically I guess the objection to the suffering Messiah began with Peter, or Satan depending on your belief. Which is where it all boils down to, what you believe. I personally think we all at some time come to the point where we have to answer the “Who do you say that I am?” question.
Poppa - thanks for the reply.
Quote:
Which is where it all boils down to, what you believe.
I looked at Matthew 18 and Jesus does indeed predict his death and resurrection but his message is more apocalyptic, and he doesn’t say that he’s going to die for our sins.
Quote:
Right & I want to base what I believe on the "truth" or as close to the truth as I can get.
Eggsactly. :-)
I'm no scholar but I have studied a lot, and still do. If you believe what Jesus claimed "I am the way the TRUTH... etc. Then getting closer to Him is getting closer to Truth.
Quote: (Mr Soul @ Jul. 24 2008, 8:20 AM)
So what exactly did the people who "witnessed" it see?
I think you have it... this assumes there were actual people who actually witnessed something... remember people believed that Odysseus actually saw Scylla at one time too. For goodness sake, Scylla ate 6 of his men and later on Heracles killed her (that makes several eye witness accounts), so that story must be true!?
Religion, myth, and rituals often go hand in hand, however, that is not required. When people think of religion they most always think of the myths and rituals and not religion. As an example, is Christianity REALLY about someone rising again, going to mass every Sunday, and transubstantiation? Or is it really about aligning your life to the message of the Sermon on the Mount regardless of minutia such as an Immaculate Conception?
My own personal perspective is that the teachings of so many religions are very very valid. Any existence of a god or gods is unlikely in the form we are taught, and frankly, if there is a god or gods, they are nothing like what we have imagined them to be. I kind of compare it to Star Trek... if these are aliens from completely different planets and ecosystems, why are they all bi-pedal and speak English? The religion you "choose" on this planet has much more to do with your circumstance of birth than what you actually believe. At the end of the day, regardless of the name of the religion, the basic messages of most come down to "keep your hands to yourself" and "be nice damn it"! These are not hard things to figure out as life just works better when you do those things and lots of folks have figured that out.
Grab Joseph Campbell. Another great read.
I think true religion is much more simple and mundane than anyone wants to give it credit for. Simply being nice and loving to one another is just not much fun to argue.
Quote: (Bubbagump @ Jul. 24 2008, 8:06 PM)
I think true religion is much more simple and mundane than anyone wants to give it credit for. Simply being nice and loving to one another is just not much fun to argue.
Yup!
Quote: (Poppa Willis @ Jul. 24 2008, 10:52 AM)
Quote:
Right & I want to base what I believe on the "truth" or as close to the truth as I can get.
Eggsactly. :-)
I'm no scholar but I have studied a lot, and still do. If you believe what Jesus claimed "I am the way the TRUTH... etc. Then getting closer to Him is getting closer to Truth.
Personally, I think the problem is a lot more complex that most folks realize. E.g, the scholarly consensus is that the Johnine theology is NOT Jesus. But lots of folks take John's theology (and remember GJohn almost did not make it into the canon) as the core statement of what Christianity is about. ON what basis? On the basis of faith, which is a way of knowing that is often opposed to and quite differs greatly from empirical science - which is what scholars use to sort through the problem of the historical Jesus.
So there is a deep conflict not just about what is true, but about how truth is identified. The choice then is between faith on the one hand, and empirical evidence on the other, esp. modern empirical science. It is as stark as that, at least when it comes to the issues Mike has raised.
Well, there was plenty of argument over the construction of the cannon as depending on what sect one was in… different writings validated one’s point of view. So just like a Senate Bill today, everyone was positioning to get their version accepted to further their personal agenda. Isn’t it grand that half the wars on this planet were fought over who was “right”? Or as any married man can tell you… you have two choices… you can either be right or you can be happy.
Quote: (Mr Soul @ Jul. 24 2008, 7:38 AM)
Matthew 26:28.
Quote:
Jerem - I forgot to comment on Matthew 26:28.
That's OK, as I mentioned it is not in the other two accounts of that saying (the synopsis) which is why Tom will say, It is most likely not authentic Y'shua", and for good reasons such a statement has creditability.
Tom left me a good link to synoptic gospel page a while back, which I am thankful for and feel is a good place to start if one truly wants to compare as many accounts of words attributed to Y'shua as they can.
I will return the favor and pass it on to you:
Gospel Parallels
Quote:
Are we sure that Jesus's was saying that his main role was to to die for our sins?
Well if that particular passage is not truly his words than No, not based on that questionable addition itself.
Even the whole blood sacrifice for sin topic is a deep one, some may even argue it emerged within the Hebrew beliefs as a result of surrounding pagan cultures.
That being said human sacrifice for any reason was not only sacrilegious but highly offensive to the Jewish people in the days of Y'shua. (ironically that was also part of other pagan traditions)
Then there is the word "remission" to contend with.
We do not have the allusive Hebrew or Aramaic/(Chaldean) copies of Matthew from the first and second century, to know what "if He said" when He said "remission".
What we have is the Greek, which is a very placid language, to elaborate, the words in the sentences tend to have various meanings based on what other words are in the sentence (context).
aphesis: freedom; (figuratively) pardon:--deliverance, forgiveness, liberty, remission.
But indeed what does that mean?
Does that mean anyone who has a fairy tail "belief" in a Greco/Roman "Cross" and that a prophet from 2000 years ago was the "Son of God" and the resurrection, and now they are "free" to sin all they want and will always be "pardoned" becuase of that "belief"?
Certainly that concept is not what a rabbi from the first century, or any Hebrew would have been teaching openly in Synagogues.
So what did He teach?
MOST of it comes back to a simple word with a complex meaning.
That word from these Greek text is "believe" also known as "faith".
However, what that word has come to mean in the Modern contemporary English is a far cry form it's meaning even from these later Greek surviving copies of the text that make up the gospels.
Y'shua did not give people reason to continue on doing wrong to one another by some mysterious "salvation" that He was going create by sacrificing Himself, far from it.
He said this which is crucial in understanding how one is "redeemed" according to what record we have of His teachings:
John 11:21-27
"I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world."
The word used there is:
pisteuo from pistiV - pistis 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):--believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
The root word for this is:
from peiqw - peitho 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
This gets closer to the meaning these words would have had to readers, and followers of a rabbi in the 1st century.
Notice the words that I have emboldened in the root word, and this is part of the possible meaning, let he who hath ear hear.
The "belief" in Y'shua for them included a consistency in their profession, and fidelity, strong things, that are not in the meaning of the word "belief" today, if a child "believes" in the tooth fairy they are not required to have any fidelity to what tooth fairies say to do, no show any consistency in that profession.
Y'shua echoed this stronger "belief" in Him and what He said throughout His teachings.
He who does not pick up His cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Doesn't sound like any "free" ride from a tooth fairy type "belief" in some human blood sacrifice for salvation to me....
It sounds like He is telling His disciples what "believing" or having "faith" in Him is, and assuring them that if they do that they will be raised on the last day, and have abundant life on this earth.
And that is something I can get behind!
Also notice this other additional meaning the word can have:
the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself
And what was the Gospel Y'shua preached?
Over and Over He told people to REPENT! To turn away from their wicked ways.
So anyone who says they "beleive" in Y'shua but does not DO that is not adhering to His Gospel, and is not showing any consistency whatsoever in their profession of "Faith".
IMHO, there is a light and a darkness within us all, and Y'shua listened to the light, by some accounts was the light, and He taught His disciples about the light and ways to remain in it and share it with others.
Quote:
If so, then this is the only time Jesus came close to saying anything remotely about he being the "suffering Messiah".
Suffering succotash!
IT depends on how far one is willing to go with the text and the strong criticism single accounts have.
It has been my experience when studying these that Y'shua was less concerned about what He was going to do and accomplish and more concerned with teaching others how to accomplish things for themselves and have Life more abundantly.
The disciples and religious leaders were more concerned with giving Him titles and purposes than He ever was.
IT was them that were looking to make Him Messiah, King, even "God", all the while He was teaching the disciples to make other disciples of men, that is pass on the goodness that was in His Light and teach others also how to live and love one another.
Personally I don't care what people "beleive" about Y'shua since He says His trees will be known by their fruit, so they can confess with their lips all they want that they "beleive" this and that, but from the abundance of their hearts their mouths will speak and the fruit will tell of which tree they are from.
----------------end rant----------
We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.
keep shinin'
jerm
Yes, Jeremy, the U Tornoto site is great, but it is not just the synoptics, it has parallels for G Thomas and G John as well, and - new feature! - stuff in Paul!
In case anyone is interested, here’s the main page for the site:
http://www.utoronto.ca/religion/synopsis/
And here is another killer resource:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/
“Hi son”
“Oh, hi dad, how’s it hanging?”
“Mustn’t grumble. Listen, I’ve got a job for you”
“Job? You mean, work!!!”
“Yes my son, FOR IT IS ORDAINED…”
“Bloody hell dad! Watch those damn lightning bolts willya! You almost blew the earpieces off my iPod!”
“Ooops, sorry.
Hmmm, anyway, I want you to go down to Earth, live among the humans for 2 or 3 decades, then be nailed to a cross”.
“You what???”
“Cross. Big bit of wood, sort of standing upright in the dirt.”
“You’re shitting me, right?”
“No son. Nails are…”
“Yeah dad, I know what fucking nails are; just not sure what you’ve been smoking today that’s all”
“Son! IT IS WRITTEN!”
"Well, get a different bloody writer then dad!"
and so on…
WOOHOO!!! We’re back to normal!!! 'Bout Time!
Ah, how can you tell? 
Quote: (phoo @ Jul. 24 2008, 8:18 PM)
WOOHOO!!! We're back to normal!!!! 'Bout Time!
Depends on ones perception of "normal".
Despite the naysayers, there IS evidence Jesus Christ walked this Earth. "Emmanuel"... God with us. If you look hard enough, you'll find Him. The Prophets foretold His coming and His REASON for coming. Like Prego, it's in there... and not just in The Bible.
There are several letters, actually reports written to the King of the Roman Empire some few decades A.D. that reference Jesus The Christ. One regional Governor wrote in saying in essence, "Hey these Christian folk? Men, women and children you have me killing? They are the most fair-minded, caring, loving people in the whole region. They're spreading their "news" like wildfire and I want to know what to do? Seems to me, they're pretty darn GOOD folk! Wassup wif dat?"
Also, think about it for a minute, WHY would anybody CLAIM to be The Messiah, the Son of God, KNOWING he would be persecuted and killed? Why? Consider His Disciples, they KNEW if they spread His message, this "Christ" thing, THEY would be persecuted and killed! Again, WHY would they do this? For no other reason than they KNEW He was who He said He was and was WHAT He said He was. They saw the miracles, they, along with over 500 hundred other people, SAW Him walking the Earth AFTER The Cross. Resurrected... just as Prophecy foretold and He Himself foretold.
Saul of Tarsus was the Jews JEW, I mean was so totally into persecuting the Christians, he was maniacal. Yet some references say he was hung from a cross upside down for preaching the Gospel of Jesus. Again, WHY? He was CHANGED! On the road to Damascus, God put the whammy on him! That's WHY.
Everyone has the choice to believe, or not. Call me a wacko, a looney or whatever... I don't care one little bit what anybody thinks about ME. The first thing you have to do to shake off the shackles of legalism and "religion", (spa-tooey!) is realize "Hey! It's not about ME!"
D - That is all. Carry on... I love you guys!
EDIT: Disclaimer: I, Diogenes of Alabama, am no Biblical Scholar. I don't study it as I should. I DO read books and references about the subject. I am NOT and NEVER have claimed to be a perfect, know-it-all person. It's up to every person to figure out for themselves what they choose to believe.