Hi,
I've not posted for a long time…… I have a little query, thought I'd ask you guys:-
I'm thinking of recording a partial-mix or even individual tracks from n-Track to tape to get a fatter more warm sound, then transferring back into n-Track for further tracking and mixing.
The question is: (2) should I transfer an already recorded drum track, say, from N to tape, then record it back to N…
OR:
(2) should I record the drum track fresh and straight to tape if I have the opportunity to, and then transfer to N?
In other words, will there be much difference in sound quality between 1 and 2 ? If not, then I would prefer the initial convenience of option 1 as regards to ease of tracking etc. However if I am going to get a significant loss of sound quality do to effectively bouncing twice, then perhaps option 2 would be best.
The reason I ask is that I'll be using a cassette 4-track machine, hence the quality issues (if I had an expensive reel-to-reel then I wouldn't worry at all….). I know cassette is not the best in terms of quality, but I'm thinking of using it for the bass-drum and bass tracks mainly, where high frequency loss is not important.
This leads me to another question - are the inherent warmth and saturation characteristics of tape still going to be apparent using a digital recording as the source as they would using the original sound source?
Cheers……any thoughts would be welcome!
Thanks
J.W.
BOOM!
Der dey iz!
Anywho, it’s an interesting experiment J.W. However, I would probably just go for a nice Tape Sim plugin or something. Unless you are into wow, flutter and tape hiss which are going to be problems. Especially on a 4 track cassette machine. Now if you had a 2-Track Teac, Otari, Ampex or Studer…
D - waiting for all rest of the worms to crawl out. 
I’d suggest waiting until the last minute. Do the final mix digitally. Make the D-T-D part of the mastering process.
I say this because one of the nice things about tape is the way it meshes sounds together, though there are a lot of really good reasons to do individual tracks (especially drums) on tape, for the natural soft knee compression it causes.
This goes to a basic issue in ‘modern’ DAW recording and strikes a nerve with me personally.
The #1 priority with any production should be PERFORMANCE not sound. The reason home DAW’s are so popular is because digital is so easy to manipulate and edit and process that you can make almost anything sound like anything. If re-recording the drums on tape gives you a chance to improve the performance, go for it!
I’ll stick to my guns on this one folks - DAW’s have caused a decline in performance. I fight it myself.
My opinion: Song first - then performance - then recording, in that order.
This goes to a basic issue in 'modern' DAW recording and strikes a nerve with me personally.
The #1 priority with any production should be PERFORMANCE not sound. The reason home DAW's are so popular is because digital is so easy to manipulate and edit and process that you can make almost anything sound like anything. If re-recording the drums on tape gives you a chance to improve the performance, go for it!
I'll stick to my guns on this one folks - DAW's have caused a decline in performance. I fight it myself.
My opinion: Song first - then performance - then recording, in that order.
Good point PW. I am prone to record music that I KNOW will be next to if not totally impossible to pull off live. Some years ago my bud and I recorded a CCM song he and I wrote. It was awesome when we finished. I looked at him and said "You know what? We have a problem if we're gonna play this live at church... we don't have SIX guitar players!"
Sadly, I lost that recording when I formatted my old 788 and gave it to my dad. Shoulda kept a backup. We redid it later but it never came out as good.
Back to tape... Phoo's point about tape compression is a good one. However, many would argue that even in the freeware/cheapware world there are plugins that do a very, very convincing job of this type of compression. Now old Golden Ears (if he exists) will be able to tell the difference but I bet average Joe won't.
The hot topic these days has veered from tape saturation to analog versus digital summing. I think a lot of the big guns have altered their thinking on tape with the advent of better DSP.
D
Thanks for the replies………
Phoo……I'm hesitant about mastering to cassette tape though, reel-to-reel yes, but not cassette. However I'm more interested in processing individual tracks.
I'm thinking of using a reasonable quality Sony cassette deck (with Dolby S) that has tape monitoring whilst recording, therefore I can fly sounds into it and back out again in real time – meaning no wow/flutter.
(As for the difference between 1 and 2 above – this is largely irrelevant as I've just remembered that I'll be recording drums to a midi track. So I'll be able to play back the drum track (triggered samples) and record direct to tape, then back to N.)
Diogenes……. I take your point about plugins (Ferox is the best plugin I've come across) …… but no plugins I've heard will give that bass-drum thud and warm bass guitar that tape can give. Also, about summing, 64 bit digital summing is meant to be reasonably good, though maybe not as good as the best analogue mixers.
Wow…great point T
I’m sure we’re all guilty of underperforming sometimes and thinking ‘well I’ll sort that in the editing suite’…
(I’m like a sponge when you’re around Tommy soaking it up…learning learning learning…)
You are sooooo right about the effect on performances, Tommy. We made some great recordings music-wise on 4 track cassette, with a couple of radio shark mics. Stuff that breathed.
J.W., I’ve goen down the same path you are on right now. I have a Tascam 4 track R2R (and a cassette 4 track too) that I thought I’d use for drum tracks or mixes, and truth be told the sound quality was a bummer. I have better preamps for the DAW, that made a big difference, and good plugins and preamps and mics and such make the sound (mixed in the box) at least close to as good as tape. I personally don’t think a DAW will ever sound like tape, just like a CD will never sound like an LP, and since I really like the sound of a good LP and tape, well, if I could get a good setup circa 1979, I’d do it right away. (Dream on, Tom.) But I suspect that you’ll find that the cassette compromises the sound too much. Maybe not. There’s an aesthetic to those little recorders. But if possible I’d try recording to tape first if the recording chain into it is not too bad. But if the preamps you use for the DAW are better, do that, go to tape and back. When I did that it did not sound like a real tape recording, to me, however. How’s that for waffling?
I picked 1979, because of this wonderful thing:
http://messageboard.tapeop.com/viewtopic.php?t=54306
Seems everybody looks at tape machines and vintage gear and goes “Wow… wouldn’t it be great to have that stuff and get “that” sound!” To which I (personally) would answer, NO! HECK FREAKIN’ NO! Well, maybe if I were a gazillionaire and could afford for someone else to MAINTAIN all that scratchy analog gear and oxide sheddin, tape eatin’, funky d@#n biasing, de-magnetizin’ tape machines… it sounds like crap (IMO!!) and is too much fargin’ work…
Thank God for modern recording gear!
D - “The Anti-Vintage” 
Meh… maybe I should ‘splain a bit…
When I was a teenage buck wantin’ to spend my Friday nights and Saturdays chasin’ skirts, I had to work. My dad and a partner of his had a tape dupin’ business. They had six or eight (I forget?) big ol’ dupin’ machines that could dupe 24 cassettes at a whack. Friday nights and Saturdays saw yours truly cleaning, demagging and checking the electronics out on those beasties. At there very best I still thought those things sucked big time. When you consider the even greater demands of maintenance for 16 or 24 track tape machines… I’ll pass… thank you. Another guy we knew with a studio over in Huntsville had a 16 track Studer. A favorite Bluegrass band of my dad’s recorded there. The guy maintained that stuff to a “T” yet I still remember the sh!77y nosie floor and editing troubles he had with that setup. Again… no thanks. I consider it a true miracle that the tape based studios cranked out all those great tunes of the past and made them listen-able. It is truly remarkable IMO.
D
a few years ago i recorded some songs partially on my tascam portastudio 488 8-track cassette, then got n-track. so I loaded the tracks onto ntrack so i could record the remaining instruments. What i found were severe timing issues. Everything was on click track, but the tape speed when played/tranferred to the computer was horribly wavering and inconsistent. Made it next to impossible to accurately lay down additional tracks straight to n-track. Maybe just my machine, maybe not.
Thing to do maybe is to record to tape and take it directy off the tape as it is recording, into the DAW?
Hi TomS - yes that is what I’m getting at. If I record to the DAW first, then from there to tape, and back to the DAW. Will it not quite sound like a tape recording, ie as if I’d recorded straight to tape first…? Is this what you found?
(Regarding your second point, I can take the recorded sound straight off the tape as it’s being recorded - using teh Monitor function. This will prevent timing errors).
Use the tape for what you really want to sound like tape. I put a guitar solo to tape from the DAW, and re-recorded back and forth between tape and DAW about 6 or so times. Got a great, dirty, messy cassette machine effect with a gnarly distortion, and it went off very well. You spend a little time checking out time-alignment, and the effect includes the misaligment. Fun trick thgouh.
If you are playing to a click track and you go tape and then immediately, as it is recording, to the DAW, that should take care of timing issues (aside from latency from the tape deck). That’s the only way I found to make something sound like it was done on tape - going from a digital recording to tape and back again just didn’t work for me.
I like Slooms idea a lot, however. Is that recording posted somewhere, sloom?
Anyone want to make an offer on a great 1977 TASCAM 40-4 4-track reel tape deck?
1/4", 7 1/2 or 15 IPS, 10" reels, servo-action, simple to use, integrated (but broken) dbx noise reduction (actually, I have two, hoping the other broken one I got on ebay would have the necessary parts to fix mine but alas no).
Arguably the best 1/4" 4-track TASCAM ever made.
Imagine the lovely tape saturation you could get with this puppy?
Back to the original question: after recording to tape and then back to digital, it will be out of sync.
Maybe not enough to matter, maybe so.
Depends on how tight it needs to be, and the mechanical perfection of the tape deck in question.
There are methods for resynchronizing throughout the song, but they’re neither simple nor easy.
(If it’s just drums, it’s a lot easier to re-synch, but the tolerance requirement is tighter too.)
GOD I’m glad I don’t use tape any more!
GOD I’m glad!
What a pain in the ass it was.
GOD I'm glad I don't use tape any more! GOD I'm glad! What a pain in the ass it was.
Heh-heh...
D
TomS - you’re probably right, but still… I wonder why there is a difference, as in both cases, whether guitar/mic preamp line out or DAW line out, the signal should be pretty similar. My 24-bit audio interface should give out a reasonably accurate and clear copy of the original sound. I wonder if it’s to do with the voltage or impedence of the signal…perhaps there is a difference then. I’m not too clued up on these technicalities…
Anyway thanks guys, I shall try this all out soon.
Sloom - I’d be interested in hearing your track also.
Anyone want to make an offer on a great 1977 TASCAM 40-4 4-track reel tape deck?
1/4", 7 1/2 or 15 IPS, 10" reels, servo-action, simple to use, integrated (but broken) dbx noise reduction (actually, I have two, hoping the other broken one I got on ebay would have the necessary parts to fix mine but alas no).
Arguably the best 1/4" 4-track TASCAM ever made. Imagine the lovely tape saturation you could get with this puppy?
Back to the original question: after recording to tape and then back to digital, it will be out of sync. Maybe not enough to matter, maybe so. Depends on how tight it needs to be, and the mechanical perfection of the tape deck in question. There are methods for resynchronizing throughout the song, but they're neither simple nor easy. (If it's just drums, it's a lot easier to re-synch, but the tolerance requirement is tighter too.)
GOD I'm glad I don't use tape any more! GOD I'm glad! What a pain in the ass it was.
I'm looking this way Jeff, lemme think about this...