Some serious trouble in London

Poob, Pash - You guys allright ?

London Blasts

My prayers are with you guys .

Please let us know what’s up.

It must be ,erm, ‘interesting’ in London if the underground’s been suspended. I mean EVERYONE uses it to get to work and back.
I hope it’s all sorted out soon.

Wihan

Quote (Wihan Stemmet @ July 07 2005,06:57)
London Blasts

My prayers are with you guys .

Ditto Wiham.

I saw a breif clip of something this morning it looked like Britsh ambulances on the tely, but didn't have time to find out what is was about.
Thabnks for the link, since I won't be watching the news tonight either....
Let's not forget Ali, I thought he lived over there as well?

God Bless Britian! is that better dude?
:D

jerm

I feel in a state of shock at the moment. One of my sons is in London at present, but he was nowhere near the bomb sites.

In my younger days, I lived 100 yards from Edgeware Road Tube station for 10 years, and used that tube every day.

These days however, it’s a mainly an arab area, so they don’t seem to care who they murder.

The trouble is, I fear that the terrorist tactics will work. Not that it will weaken the resolve of the British people, quite the opposite in fact, but I suspect it will arouse a backlash against British Muslims, and that can only aid the terrorists.

Violence breeds violence and hatred breeds hatred.

A few hours ago I spoke on the 'phone to a Scottish Muslim friend of mine, and I felt anger towards him. But he was in tears; he and his family are afraid to leave their home. He knows that he is in no danger from his neighbours, but he fears his neighbour’s neighbours.

Ali

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but I suspect it will arouse a backlash against British Muslims, and that can only aid the terrorists.

Violence breeds violence and hatred breeds hatred.


Ali, you’ve got that spot on.

We are about 2 hrs ahead of you guys, and we have a satelite TV in our office area, so needless to say, BBC was on the whole day yesterday. They spoke to a couple of different people (and groups of people). It looks like they made a point to get the Brittish Muslims’ opposition of this violence accross. I mean by the looks of things even the eastern Muslim countries seems to be against it.
When 9/11 happened, they were partying.
But the media cannot always help in swinging the people’s opinion.

I sure hope it turns out well.

And besides, I think if the same guys was behind this than what was behind 9/11, the death toll wouldn’t have been a 2 digit number…

This was quite an ‘interesting’ two months for you Ali ?

:(

Wihan.

I was shocked and saddened by yesterday’s events in London. I live in Copenhagen, Denmark, proposedly pointed out as the next target of these madmen. I have feelings of compassion for the victims and anger and contempt for whoever performed this atrocious act.

I am due to leave for a week-long trip to London within a week and I look forward to revisiting London in spite of events, but I will of course be extra careful when I travel.

My thoughts go to all londoners affected by this, their loved ones at home and abroad. May you live long and prosper.

Nevertheless, my girlfriend and I are determined to travel to London next week. We have been looking forward to our vacation together for a long time and won’t let anybody ruin it for the sake of any cause whatsoever. We will, of course, be careful and alert.

regards, Nils

Tank, glad your son wasn’t there! My prayers go out to loved ones of the lives lost there. Tis a sad state of affairs this ol’ world has become.

Nils, stay alert while there, and hope you have a safe but fun vacation!

Quote (Sceptic Tank @ July 07 2005,21:16)
Violence breeds violence and hatred breeds hatred.

There is no path to peace, peace is the path.

This is just terrible. Folks, we gotta do something about the direction things are taking.

I don’t know what to say except that I am praying for an end to this senseless killing… best wishes and prayers for our UK friends.

TG

Quote (TomS @ July 08 2005,09:30)
This is just terrible. Folks, we gotta do something about the direction things are taking.

And what do you propose? Fight fire with fire? Turn the other cheek?
As forum members have stated to me in the past, "there is no reasoning with terrorist".--especially when rooted in religion IMHO.

They have no demands to fuffill, no ajenda other than "make non- beleivers DIE"

PRAY > Pray > then pray some more, that God, Allah,Jehova, or whatever they call Him will open their eye's to the sin they are doing to the innocent. After all it's all the same God of Abraham, He is very displeased with them!

jerm



:(

People do things like this for reasons, so, yes, it is not only possible, it is imperative that one reason with a terrorist. Mostly by listening, first. This is one lesson that will almost never be heard in the White House, for it is politically unpopular. It better serves the agenda of the present admin to convince people that discussion with the terrorists is impossible, that the people who do this sort of thing are irrational, evil, etc. So…what needs to be done will not be done. What will be done will continue the cycle of violence. :angry:

To listen to these people, all you have to do is visit their websites. Their agenda is very clear; to kill all unbelievers (basically, anybody who doesn’t do what they tell us to). There is no reasoning with them.


teej

Hogwash teej, hogwash. They say the same about you.

Nice to see you back BTW! :)

Teej - i agree with tom. i honestly think this has very little to do with religion. i think religion is being used as a tool by the leaders of these organizations to motivate the little guy. maybe they fill thier heads with ideas just before they send them running in with a bomb, but that is NOT the reason they are attacking people. that is merely rhetoric used to motivate people to commit acts of suicidal aggression.

so what are thier real motives? what are thier real reasons?

I actually got into a similar debate on another forum, where I took Tom & illium’s stance, i.e., that they don’t actually want to kill all non-believers. My debaters vehemently disagreed with me. The Muslim extremists do seem to want to kill infidels & we are infidels.

There’s a Muslim woman (who’s name I can’t remember) who’s on PBS recently talking about radical Islam. I think she may have written a book? She’s very good & seems to be quite knowledgeable. She seems to be saying that there are parts of the Koran that, when misinterpreted, fuel the extremists point of view. She also says that the Muslim religious leaders do NOT do all they can do to dissuade these radicals & point out where they have misinterpreted the Koran.

sure, the religion has this as part of it’s teachings, which is HOW they are able to use it to convince people of this kind of thing. so ask yourself, do you really beleive the people who are runing these organizations are religious people who are concerned with being pious people and following the laws of thier religion completely so much that they want to wage a war against the entire western world of “non-believing infidels”?

of course not. they are simply people who are using this religion and the emotional power it contains to influence people to do things to further thier political and probably economic motives. they are about as religiously motivated as bill gates is.

Quote (teej813 @ July 09 2005,12:27)
To listen to these people, all you have to do is visit their websites. Their agenda is very clear; to kill all unbelievers (basically, anybody who doesn't do what they tell us to). There is no reasoning with them.

Sorry, I am with illium on this one. That is what they say, but the guy at the top, he just wants to be in charge. You have a trillion dollars in oil under them thar hills. These guys use kids and religion to do their bidding. Their eventual goal so far as I believe is to be their own dictatorships ala Libya and get rich on oil, build a few nukes, and maybe take over the world. Religion is just the excuse they use and an effective tool to get the masses riled up. Religion has been used like this for thousands of years. It ain't right, it ain't representative of most folks.... but you get someone poor nd ignorant enough, they'll believe just about whatever you tell them if them believe the end result will be getting out of their poverty, hunger, frustrations, opression etc.... Even if some of those aren't real and just perceived.

Don’t overlook the fact that it serves the purposes of some folks in power in western Christiandom to portray Muslims as uniformly nutcasess, esp. certain Christian leaders and politicians. It’s a potent political and theological tool b/c Islam is so poorly understood by most non-Muslims in the US. But there is so much diversity in Islam. E.g., with regard to Mr. Soul’s comment, the relevant passages in teh Qur’an are 2.190-193, here are three translations:

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002.190
YUSUFALI: Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
PICKTHAL: Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.
SHAKIR: And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.

002.191
YUSUFALI: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
PICKTHAL: And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
SHAKIR: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

002.192
YUSUFALI: But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

002.193
YUSUFALI: And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.
PICKTHAL: And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.
SHAKIR: And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.



from:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/qmtintro.html

Note that if you read 191 apart from 190, you get a very different understanding of the moral rules of war.

So I’d say: what causes people to read the text one way or another? Qur’anic hermeneutics is a dialectical process. Certain non-Qur’anic ideas cause a certain reading of the text, which in turn is used to justify those non-Qur’anic ideas, which in turn reinforces the reading, etc…

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…the Muslim religious leaders do NOT do all they can do…


i’ve heard an argument that one of the problems is that the leadership is lacking an organized hierarchical foundation… but, knowing little about islam, i can’t say… i know who the pope is (and his funny hat), but i couldn’t tell you the name of even one muslim “leader”…

isaac