Weird image
When a song is loading I’m getting superimposed letter images over the ntrack browser. Is anyone else seeing that? CLICK HERE FOR A SCREEN SHOT
Video overwriting where it shouldn’t. That’s usually caused by funky video drivers, but I suppose to could be something else. Does it stay that way or is it cleared up after the song finishes loading and the waves are are redrawn?
| Quote (phoo @ Dec. 26 2004,18:46) |
| Video overwriting where it shouldn't. That's usually caused by funky video drivers, but I suppose to could be something else. Does it stay that way or is it cleared up after the song finishes loading and the waves are are redrawn? |
Right the superimposed image is removed as soon as the song loads. The shapes vary and show up in diffrent plases, usually along the top and over the toolbars.
I’m using Win ME and I’ve seen that and a whole lot of others.
I brought this up before but no one seemed to think it was a big deal.
In 3.x these problems were minor but 4.x is loaded with them. For me its the biggest complaint I have about Ntrack and keeps me from making good use of it.
Ntrack would be a whole lot better if its user interface was much more stable.
Maybe v4.x under XP is better- I don’t know. Under ME and 2K it stinks.
no cents
Zero problems here under Win2K. It does not stink…
xp gets those sometimes. much less prevelant with the newer versions though.
| Quote (nocents @ Dec. 26 2004,23:23) |
| I'm using Win ME and I've seen that and a whole lot of others. I brought this up before but no one seemed to think it was a big deal. In 3.x these problems were minor but 4.x is loaded with them. For me its the biggest complaint I have about Ntrack and keeps me from making good use of it. Ntrack would be a whole lot better if its user interface was much more stable. Maybe v4.x under XP is better- I don't know. Under ME and 2K it stinks. no cents |
Right, I didn't see this at all in the previous ntrack versions (3.3 and earlier) so that makes one think that maybe something
needs tweeking in the visuals of ntrack 4.+ versions. Lagre images are going to suck system resorces, so one would think that this is a ligitimate consirn.
But then TimOBrian has no problems in win2k.
Try this; open n, add a song, click to open the mixer view, then click on and off, on the eq icons across the board
to open the "Channel EQ Settings Dialog Boxs". When the EQ D/box opens, doesn't this image explode to huge before reverting to a smaller size? Or am I the only one seeing this? Action like that could freeze up alot of comps. And if your seeing that, you should say something. The superimposed images could be a symptom of this problem.
Anyway thanks for the input, I think this needs yours and Flavios attention.
Tom
Everyone knows that ME is a crappy OS, it was so bad that it was replaced almost immediately. N ver 4. is built to work with all the OS, but is the most stable it seems on XP. If you are still on ME it might be time to upgrade the os and come into the now. The software is going to be going forward, reaching back to an OS that was replaced is not smart marketing on NT part. Just a thought so don’t take this as fiestiness on my part.
| Quote (Robomusic @ Dec. 27 2004,15:29) |
| Everyone knows that ME is a crappy OS, it was so bad that it was replaced almost immediately. N ver 4. is built to work with all the OS, but is the most stable it seems on XP. If you are still on ME it might be time to upgrade |
I'm running Windows XP v5.1
Intel Pentium®4 CPU 2.66GHz
2.67 GHz, 1.00 GB of RAM
These image issues where nill in previous n-track versions.
This is the same thing, possibly the memory overwrite, the that is causing other problems.
click for big image
Tom-
yes I have seen the “giant drawer opening” phenomenon with the EQ as well as a dozen other graphic oddities such as the channel strip behaving strangely (docking problems) and lots of odd ghosting.
This is just one of many annoying graphics problems with v4.
As far as ME being “crappy” it ran v3 pefectly- and still does! I help a number of other people with XP notebooks recover from crashes and other ailments all the time. XP is no better than ME from what I see- maybe its worse. It looks much better (according to some) than the old windows look and has more internet/multimedia features but it hasn’t proven to be more stable than ME in my experience. On my “general use” machine I have about 75 or so applications of every type and kind. My installation of ME was from 2002 and never needed a clean re-install. What people forget is the importance of maintenance.
Now I have a dedicated recording machine with Win 2K on it.
Running v3.x and 4.x produces EXACTLY the same results as under ME! No one here can tell me that the problem is with Win ME.
Unless XP is some “wonder” version of windows I see the exact same thing happening as with ME and 2K.
I think its high time the major graphics problems get fixed in 4.
I bought 3 and 4 intending to be a long term user of Ntrack- however 4 is a big disappointment for me. Maybe it proves that you get what you pay for…
BUT- I have Tracktion running on ME and 2K and there’s not a glitch to be found! They both run smoothly and identically at a very low price. Tracktion has lots of great graphics effects (but not all the features of Ntrack) and I have yet to see one annoying glitch. Explain that…
to Flavio. If he wants us to stay with Ntrack he has to take this problem seriously- who wants to try and do serious work while fighting the user interface?
no cents
I help a number of other people with XP notebooks recover from crashes and other ailments all the time. XP is no better than ME from what I see- maybe its worse.
There is no way WinXp is worse than WinME unless there is some other underlying problem that is not OS related.
WinME is a very much less stable OS than WinXp or Win2K in virtually every category there is and in many ways less stable than Win98, Win98SE, or even Win95. The implementation of WDM is a half-assed implementation in WinME and the OS kernel is the same as in Win98 and Win95. WinXp uses the same kernel as Win2K. If you find Win2K to be the most stable then WinXp will just as stable when using the same drivers and in many cases more stable since the folks that write drivers have put a lot more time in getting the drivers right for WinXp. WinME WDM drivers were for the most part hacked NT drivers, and those carried over to Win2K, but the hacked NT drivers will not work on WinXp so the driver devs had to come up with real WinXp WDM drivers.
On the other hand since Win2k will use some of the same drivers as WinME drivers that work well on WinME should work well on Win2K.
If you find WinME and/or Win2K to be more stable than WinXp I guarantee the problem is a driver problem, or underlying hardware issue.
While there are some lingering issues with n-Tracks V4 I suspect your problem is indeed video and/or audio driver related.
What's the hardware config of all these machines that are more stable with WinME? Are their problems just when running n-Tracks or are these crashes caused by other apps? Is there a common hardware or driver config in all these machines?
There is no way WinXp is worse than WinME unless there is some other underlying problem that is not OS related.
WinME is a very much less stable OS than WinXp or Win2K in virtually every category there is and in many ways less stable than Win98, Win98SE, or even Win95. The implementation of WDM is a half-assed implementation in WinME and the OS kernel is the same as in Win98 and Win95. WinXp uses the same kernel as Win2K. If you find Win2K to be the most stable then WinXp will just as stable when using the same drivers and in many cases more stable since the folks that write drivers have put a lot more time in getting the drivers right for WinXp. WinME WDM drivers were for the most part hacked NT drivers, and those carried over to Win2K, but the hacked NT drivers will not work on WinXp so the driver devs had to come up with real WinXp WDM drivers.
On the other hand since Win2k will use some of the same drivers as WinME drivers that work well on WinME should work well on Win2K.
If you find WinME and/or Win2K to be more stable than WinXp I guarantee the problem is a driver problem, or underlying hardware issue.
While there are some lingering issues with n-Tracks V4 I suspect your problem is indeed video and/or audio driver related.
What's the hardware config of all these machines that are more stable with WinME? Are their problems just when running n-Tracks or are these crashes caused by other apps? Is there a common hardware or driver config in all these machines?
| Quote (nocents @ Dec. 27 2004,22:45) |
| Tom- yes I have seen the "giant drawer opening" phenomenon with the EQ as well as a dozen other graphic oddities such as the channel strip behaving strangely (docking problems) and lots of odd ghosting. This is just one of many annoying graphics problems with v4. As far as ME being "crappy" it ran v3 pefectly- and still does! I help a number of other people with XP notebooks recover from crashes and other ailments all the time. XP is no better than ME from what I see- maybe its worse. It looks much better (according to some) than the old windows look and has more internet/multimedia features but it hasn't proven to be more stable than ME in my experience. On my "general use" machine I have about 75 or so applications of every type and kind. My installation of ME was from 2002 and never needed a clean re-install. What people forget is the importance of maintenance. Now I have a dedicated recording machine with Win 2K on it. Running v3.x and 4.x produces EXACTLY the same results as under ME! No one here can tell me that the problem is with Win ME. Unless XP is some "wonder" version of windows I see the exact same thing happening as with ME and 2K. I think its high time the major graphics problems get fixed in 4. I bought 3 and 4 intending to be a long term user of Ntrack- however 4 is a big disappointment for me. Maybe it proves that you get what you pay for.... BUT- I have Tracktion running on ME and 2K and there's not a glitch to be found! They both run smoothly and identically at a very low price. Tracktion has lots of great graphics effects (but not all the features of Ntrack) and I have yet to see one annoying glitch. Explain that.... to Flavio. If he wants us to stay with Ntrack he has to take this problem seriously- who wants to try and do serious work while fighting the user interface? no cents |
Thanks nocents! I'm sorry to say that I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing this happen. And I agree that it should be a high pryority issue, hopefully it's just being overlooked, or worse yet causing Flavio to burn the midnight oil. When it is ironed out ntrack 4 will be an extreemly fine tool that will be worth alot more than he is charging now.
Phoo could have a point about memory overwrite. Here is a little info on the subject of tracking a memory overwrite that I just found, hoping it might help.
Have you ever hunted a memory overwrite bug? If you have, you know how hard they can be to track down. Every programmer's nightmare is when such a bug suddenly creeps up in a large project.
The runtime libraries included with most compilers include a debug-version of the heap management functions, but they usually first detect the overwrite sometime after it has happened. Wouldn't it be nice if you could detect the overwrite when it happens?
In the following sections I will implement a complete debugging/tracing library which will significantly reduce the time you spend tracing heap management bugs. I will not tell you how to avoid heap errors only how to detect and find them.
Note: I primarily use Watcom C/C++, but the tools have also been tested with VAC++ 3.0. The sources may contain information on what you have to do and/or change if you use VAC++. All sources should be easy to adapt to other compilers (BC/2, EMX, Metaware, etc).
Catching memory overwrites
If you ask me this is simple. Windows is a message based system. This means when a window which was overlapped gets on top of the screen windows sends it a message called wm_paint which tells the window to repaint itself. But this message will only be enqued at a list together with every other message the window might recieve. This messages include nearly everything like mouse clicks, resize, you name it.
So your problem is easy to understand. Whenever a window is created or was overlapped the OS declares at least a part of it as invalid and most often fills that region with a standard colour. This is why you see a grey region. When the application has all urgent calculations (like opening a song project) done and comes to checking its messages it performs actions for every message in the list. Most often wm_paint is not the only message so it gotta wait. And we’re talking about a multi-tasking system. There are other processes and windows which also want to get their stuff done.
See? Sometimes it takes a second until the screen gets refreshed.
This is exactly the same reason why one should kill every possible background processes while tracking. You don’t want that “nice” office loader to interrupt your audio stream.
Elwood 
Tom-
Don’t worry- you’re definately not the only one seeing these very irritating and annoying faults in Ntrack. There are a lot of people who tried 4 (demo) and found the same things I did. 4 would be very good and worth much more than its cost (like 3 was) IF these problems were fixed.
As far as what phoo said, I’m not here to debate the merits of one windows over the other. I have a Radeon 9000 with the very latest drivers for ME and I’m running some of the most graphic intensive programs available (3d modelers, paint programs, video editing, audio, etc) without a single glitch. Same with high speed games- absolutely PERFECT! Only Ntrack v4 is screwed up.
FURTHERMORE, Ive tried SONAR, CUBASE, and SAMPLITUDE latest demos and every one of them is much more graphics intensive than Ntrack 4 and they all work PERFECTLY under ME and 2k.
As I said in my previous post which was conveniently ignored, I’m running Tracktion without a single PROBLEM. I have one project with 37 tracks and there is not a glitch to be found. I noticed no one wanted to address that. How come N-track 4 can’t do that on the same machine? Answer- IT STINKS right now.
I also tried the Ableton live demo and again, no graphics OR audio problems. I have Acid 4 running (which I bought) and it has absolutely no problems running under me even with 20 soft synths loaded up along with lots of loops. It seems like N-track is the odd man out here- every other program works great under ME.
I didn’t just bring this up recently. I bought 4 when it first came out and have been bringing this up ever since I bought it, yet its been ignored almost completely. Just look up my posts and you’ll see.
There are some people here who apparently want to pretend v4 has no problems and its the users fault. Since when should a program not run correctly- especially the graphics part- right out of the box? Every other audio program does.
no cents
| Quote (nocents @ Dec. 28 2004,12:35) |
| Tom- Don't worry- you're definately not the only one seeing these very irritating and annoying faults in Ntrack. There are a lot of people who tried 4 (demo) and found the same things I did. 4 would be very good and worth much more than its cost (like 3 was) IF these problems were fixed. As far as what phoo said, I'm not here to debate the merits of one windows over the other. I have a Radeon 9000 with the very latest drivers for ME and I'm running some of the most graphic intensive programs available (3d modelers, paint programs, video editing, audio, etc) without a single glitch. Same with high speed games- absolutely PERFECT! Only Ntrack v4 is screwed up. FURTHERMORE, Ive tried SONAR, CUBASE, and SAMPLITUDE latest demos and every one of them is much more graphics intensive than Ntrack 4 and they all work PERFECTLY under ME and 2k. As I said in my previous post which was conveniently ignored, I'm running Tracktion without a single PROBLEM. I have one project with 37 tracks and there is not a glitch to be found. I noticed no one wanted to address that. How come N-track 4 can't do that on the same machine? Answer- IT STINKS right now. I also tried the Ableton live demo and again, no graphics OR audio problems. I have Acid 4 running (which I bought) and it has absolutely no problems running under me even with 20 soft synths loaded up along with lots of loops. It seems like N-track is the odd man out here- every other program works great under ME. I didn't just bring this up recently. I bought 4 when it first came out and have been bringing this up ever since I bought it, yet its been ignored almost completely. Just look up my posts and you'll see. There are some people here who apparently want to pretend v4 has no problems and its the users fault. Since when should a program not run correctly- especially the graphics part- right out of the box? Every other audio program does. no cents |
I'm with you nocents this beautiful baby needs some help!
The "Show a selected mixer stripe" (first green icon)
at the bottom left of the ntrack browser works fine.
I've found that I can work with v4 by staying in the
time line view and highlighting a specific track then
clicking the "Show a selected mixer strip" icon. And
also the Master EQ properties Dialog Box icon from the
strip mixer, calls a perfect load of the control "EQ
settings Dialog Box". This method works perfect and
is a good example of how cool the program could be!
There is another way to test the super imposed image
overload, this is amazing.
If you make the ntrack browser no more than 6"x 6"
and the mixer 6"x6" and place them on the left side of
your monitor window. Then click on one of the Master
EQ Monitor Box Icons, WOW! The pop up explodes to the
size of your monitor then bounces back into the 6"x6"
inch area.
Also the Master EQ icon if you hover your cursor over it,
says; Master Master (two words) EQ properties dialog box.
Also if you keep clicking on the EQ,icon from other tracks,
those EQ Dialog boxes are added to, and pile up on the
first one you open.
If there was a problem with your OS it would have
shown in version 3. and any of the other programs you've
tested. Sorry Flavio, this baby needs your attention.
Just trying to be helpful.
Tom
As far as what phoo said, I'm not here to debate the merits of one windows over the other...
...Only Ntrack v4 is screwed up.
It seems like N-track is the odd man out here- every other program works great under ME.
I'm not saying that you will have problems if you run WinME. I'm trying to narrow down why you said WinME was less crappy than WinXp. If it's just n-Tracks V4 messing up on WinXp and V4 doesn't mess up on WinME then I'd say it might be an OS compatibility problem or the OS itself. If V4 is equally screwy on WinME and WinXp then I'd say it was n-Tracks V4.
FURTHERMORE, Ive tried SONAR, CUBASE, and SAMPLITUDE latest demos and every one of them is much more graphics intensive than Ntrack 4 and they all work PERFECTLY under ME and 2k.
Do they screw up on WinXp?
Based on those quotes I don't understand why you would say this:
XP is no better than ME from what I see- maybe its worse.
What apps are crashing on WinXp that aren't crashing on WinME?
I stand by my statement that WinME is one of the most unstable OSes ever released. Count your lucky stars that you have good stable drivers for that OS. With good drivers it's just as stable was Win98SE, because WinME is Win98SE with a first-attempt WDM driver model added (and some other under the hood networking stuff). The WDM drivers for it are not up to par in general, though there are good drivers for some hardware. We all know the Win98SE is the most stable Win9x OS. There's no reason WinME wouldn't be just as stable as that as long as the drivers are up to par.
V4 has lots of things that need addressing. None of them seem to be WinXp (or any other OS) specific.
...Only Ntrack v4 is screwed up.
It seems like N-track is the odd man out here- every other program works great under ME.
I'm not saying that you will have problems if you run WinME. I'm trying to narrow down why you said WinME was less crappy than WinXp. If it's just n-Tracks V4 messing up on WinXp and V4 doesn't mess up on WinME then I'd say it might be an OS compatibility problem or the OS itself. If V4 is equally screwy on WinME and WinXp then I'd say it was n-Tracks V4.
FURTHERMORE, Ive tried SONAR, CUBASE, and SAMPLITUDE latest demos and every one of them is much more graphics intensive than Ntrack 4 and they all work PERFECTLY under ME and 2k.
Do they screw up on WinXp?
Based on those quotes I don't understand why you would say this:
XP is no better than ME from what I see- maybe its worse.
What apps are crashing on WinXp that aren't crashing on WinME?
I stand by my statement that WinME is one of the most unstable OSes ever released. Count your lucky stars that you have good stable drivers for that OS. With good drivers it's just as stable was Win98SE, because WinME is Win98SE with a first-attempt WDM driver model added (and some other under the hood networking stuff). The WDM drivers for it are not up to par in general, though there are good drivers for some hardware. We all know the Win98SE is the most stable Win9x OS. There's no reason WinME wouldn't be just as stable as that as long as the drivers are up to par.
V4 has lots of things that need addressing. None of them seem to be WinXp (or any other OS) specific.
Tom-
Yes indeed this needs Flavio’s attention. Otherwise N-track will be rapidly submerged and disappear. I had friends download it and try it on XP notebooks and all the same craziness you described (my favorites are floating dialog boxes expanding out to fill the screen) is there.
As N-track users who want to stick with the program, this is a major turnoff. Its getting easier and easier to jump ship and go to Tracktion (which I’ve tested GREAT on 2K, XP, and ME) or some other low cost package. Its only $80 for Tracktion and its a great program. At $300 Sonar is amazing and the plug-ins alone are worth that much.
In my case, as probably in yours, we like Ntrack and have time, money and recordings invested in it. Before I quit I plan to make a noise.
Some Ntrack users don’t want to hear anything negative about the program but ironically they’re the ones that are gonna BURY it really fast.
- phoo, you still miss the point. There are problems with Ntrack in all three versions of windows. Period. The problems are MAJOR and need fixing. Thats what Tom and I are talking about. I said IN MY EXPERIENCE I have seen XP crash and go to blue screens just using “lightweight” software more than ME. One reason is I do a lot of preventative maintenance on my installation of ME. I’m not here to do a scientific evaluation of what I said, what you said, or which windows is more stable. I couldn’t care less because it works right for me.
What doesn’t work right is the friggin graphics on NTRACK V4. It hasn’t worked right since the first release (which I bought) and the later releases are doing that same crap.
no cents
- phoo, you still miss the point....
I didn't miss the point. I was pointing out that it wasn't the OS and you confirm that. n-Tracks graphics problems are a consistent problem regardless of OS.
I said IN MY EXPERIENCE I have seen XP crash and go to blue screens just using "lightweight" software more than ME.
I understand, but if you see blue screens on WinXp then the apps are going down to kernel mode and that's where the drivers are. That's all I'm saying. Laptops are notorious for having funky hardware and driver issues when compared to desktops. You are the only person I've ever heard say WinME was more stable than WinXp, so I wanted to know how you came to the conclusion.
I didn't miss the point. I was pointing out that it wasn't the OS and you confirm that. n-Tracks graphics problems are a consistent problem regardless of OS.
I said IN MY EXPERIENCE I have seen XP crash and go to blue screens just using "lightweight" software more than ME.
I understand, but if you see blue screens on WinXp then the apps are going down to kernel mode and that's where the drivers are. That's all I'm saying. Laptops are notorious for having funky hardware and driver issues when compared to desktops. You are the only person I've ever heard say WinME was more stable than WinXp, so I wanted to know how you came to the conclusion.