Supreme Court rulings

Fine line-------> >|<. The SC is afraid to cross it (or “firm” it up.)

I’m afraid we have not heard the last of this. And WHY? They had The Ten Commandments plastered EVERYWHERE when I was growing up. WHY is it such a big, fat, hairy deal now? No one was running around hollering for the ACLU to come save them back then…

TG

I agree - we shouldn’t use the word “holiday” anymore :laugh:

<!–QuoteBegin>

Quote
There wouldn’t have to be a law. The 10 commandments are about displays and not laws. But let’s say that government agencies and offices have a policy that officially closes their facilities on Christmas. You said you didn’t want government to advocate a religious messages, but in effect, if the government grants such a religious holiday, is that not a message that it endorses and “respects” the establishment of a religion?? I’m not saying this would be my personal interpretation, but rather one of the potential steps that will be taken by entities who wish to further separate church and state.

I’m glad you qualified this by saying that it’s not personal interpretation. I think that you’re nick-picky here. Which came first - the government or Christmas? The government isn’t sanctioning Christmas by honoring that holiday.

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 28 2005,16:14)
I’m glad you qualified this by saying that it’s not personal interpretation. I think that you’re nick-picky here. Which came first - the government or Christmas? The government isn’t sanctioning Christmas by honoring that holiday.

I’m not sure where you are trying to go with this: The 10 Commandments came before our government too. If timing is why the Government can observe Christmas then that argument could be extended to allow displays of the 10C too!

Let me try to clarify: Christmas was a holiday that many people have celebrated over history. Our government simply honored it so it’s employees can celebrate with their families who don’t work in the government.

Now I don’t recall a tradition or history of people going around putting up plagues with the 10 C’s on them? If so, then the government doing it might not be so odd. That’s where I’m going with it.

The two examples are completely different situations - surely you can see that?

<!–QuoteBegin>

Quote
…10 C’s…


are you guys talking about my report card?..

:D

isaac

Quote (gtr4him @ June 28 2005,15:14)
Fine line-------> >|<. The SC is afraid to cross it (or “firm” it up.)

I’m afraid we have not heard the last of this. And WHY? They had The Ten Commandments plastered EVERYWHERE when I was growing up. WHY is it such a big, fat, hairy deal now? No one was running around hollering for the ACLU to come save them back then…

TG

Things have changed. Look at the past election… Religion divided, not economics, race, or anything else. It was religion. Our country after 9/11 became very insecure and paranoid. The masses have latched onto their passifier of choice and don’t want to let go. The religious are insecure in their position… after a thing like 9/11 folks found comfort in religion and to take that away is terrifying. On the other side, folks are terrified of too much religion becuase after all, the Taliban/Saud et al. are a theocracy. Folks in that case are scared of becoming like the terrorists themselves and being down trodden by such a system.

A core belief of mine is the whole natural selection/evolution idea and a big prt of that is survival and reproduction. As my dad told me as a kid, zoologically speaking, animals have two purposes… survival and reproduction. When we look at society, that is what we see, most all actions can be traced back to survival and reproduction. (Find me an action that doesn’t…) The problem is here, folks see religion as either a cause for or against their survival and to lose something like that is one of man’s greatest insecurities. Don’t beleive me, take a look at the past few thousand years and the wars fought over religion.

OK, does the Gov. take off Christmas, paid holiday? If so then it is a national holiday. therefore it is no different than displaying Isaac’s report card, I mean the Ten Commandments. You may paint the mule to look like a horse but it is still a mule.

As TG pointed out religions are their own worst enemy. Against abortion cause it’s killing living human beings, so blow up the local abortion clinic and kill some more human beings, does this make them right in their own minds? If so they may need to stop these religious practices in God’s name, they might just be pissing him off. And maybe the left wing in California is pissing him off due to all the recent earthquakes!

Or maybe Arnold is behind the recent quakes, is that a right wing conspiracy Toker?

You’re right, you should not use the word “holiday” any more.

'Cos you use it wrong! :D

Over here, “holidays” means what you call “vacation”.

What you call “a holiday” we call “a bank holiday”. (Good old mammon! LOL).

Also, and more importantly, what you call “cookies” we call “biscuits”, and what you call “biscuits” we call “over-cooked, dried out buns!”.

But, not “hot cross buns”. Which are a cake, and eaten on Easter bank holiday when many people go on Holiday, (but rarely on vacation).

So…

Where was I? ???

:D

Quote (gtr4him @ June 28 2005,14:27)
Let's not forget By the people, FOR the people....
Gummint is people too! :p (I think?)

However, I agree with Mr. Gump. The Government cannot per LAW establish a "religion". Thus, Freedom of Religion. What religious zealots fail to realize is THEY are their own worst enemy. The Bible I study does not condone running around and thumping people on the head to try and convert them. Many have lost sight of that............

TG

PS From what I have been told, The Quran and many other "religious" works do not condone forcing people to their belief. Man has managed to screw up the whole works.....
What Bible are you reading, TG?

???
Quote (ksdb @ June 28 2005,16:41)
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 28 2005,16:14)
I'm glad you qualified this by saying that it's not personal interpretation. I think that you're nick-picky here. Which came first - the government or Christmas? The government isn't sanctioning Christmas by honoring that holiday.

I'm not sure where you are trying to go with this: The 10 Commandments came before our government too. If timing is why the Government can observe Christmas then that argument could be extended to allow displays of the 10C too!

What about the hundreds of other commandments? I say we paste up the whole list everywhere. If you say "that's ridiculous" then I'd just say that that sort of response indicates just how deeply Christian the attempts to paste them in the courthouses were.

:)

Quote (TomS @ June 28 2005,21:13)
Quote (gtr4him @ June 28 2005,14:27)
Let’s not forget <!–QuoteBegin>
Quote
By the people, FOR the people…
Gummint is people too! :p (I think?)

However, I agree with Mr. Gump. The Government cannot per LAW establish a “religion”. Thus, Freedom of Religion. What religious zealots fail to realize is THEY are their own worst enemy. The Bible I study does not condone running around and thumping people on the head to try and convert them. Many have lost sight of that…

TG

PS From what I have been told, The Quran and many other “religious” works do not condone forcing people to their belief. Man has managed to screw up the whole works…

What Bible are you reading, TG?

???

NKJV, but before you guys give me a raft of crap… let’s consider Jesus’s teachings. NOT the Old Testament where they would smash your head in with donkey parts!

TG

Quote (Bubbagump @ June 28 2005,18:40)
Quote (gtr4him @ June 28 2005,15:14)
Fine line-------> >|<. The SC is afraid to cross it (or “firm” it up.)

I’m afraid we have not heard the last of this. And WHY? They had The Ten Commandments plastered EVERYWHERE when I was growing up. WHY is it such a big, fat, hairy deal now? No one was running around hollering for the ACLU to come save them back then…

TG

Things have changed. Look at the past election… Religion divided, not economics, race, or anything else. It was religion. Our country after 9/11 became very insecure and paranoid. The masses have latched onto their passifier of choice and don’t want to let go. The religious are insecure in their position… after a thing like 9/11 folks found comfort in religion and to take that away is terrifying. On the other side, folks are terrified of too much religion becuase after all, the Taliban/Saud et al. are a theocracy. Folks in that case are scared of becoming like the terrorists themselves and being down trodden by such a system.

A core belief of mine is the whole natural selection/evolution idea and a big prt of that is survival and reproduction. As my dad told me as a kid, zoologically speaking, animals have two purposes… survival and reproduction. When we look at society, that is what we see, most all actions can be traced back to survival and reproduction. (Find me an action that doesn’t…) The problem is here, folks see religion as either a cause for or against their survival and to lose something like that is one of man’s greatest insecurities. Don’t beleive me, take a look at the past few thousand years and the wars fought over religion.

I can see that…and agree with you Bubba. As I’ve said before, it’s the zealots that screw everything up IMO. Fanaticism is not a good thing…

TG

Quote (TomS @ June 28 2005,21:15)
Quote (ksdb @ June 28 2005,16:41)
Quote (Mr Soul @ June 28 2005,16:14)
I’m glad you qualified this by saying that it’s not personal interpretation. I think that you’re nick-picky here. Which came first - the government or Christmas? The government isn’t sanctioning Christmas by honoring that holiday.

I’m not sure where you are trying to go with this: The 10 Commandments came before our government too. If timing is why the Government can observe Christmas then that argument could be extended to allow displays of the 10C too!

What about the hundreds of other commandments? I say we paste up the whole list everywhere. If you say “that’s ridiculous” then I’d just say that that sort of response indicates just how deeply Christian the attempts to paste them in the courthouses were.

:)

If there are other commandments that have a recognizable tie to the cultural and historical sources of lawmaking in this country, then why not?? There are numerous examples in our government that already do this. You’re familiar with the history of law frieze on the Supreme Court building, right?? It features figures such as Moses, Hammurabi, Muhammad, Confucius and Napoleon. Some of these individuals have a certain amount of religious significance. The Washington Monument is in the shape of an obelisk, which was a symbol of the sun god Ra in Eygpt. Other buildings in D.C. (such as the Supreme Court) are constructed similar to ancient religious temples (Greek and/or Roman). Wouldn’t all that stuff be equally objectionable by those who wish to completely separate church and state??

So we’d need to put up the whole of mosaic law? :)

Quote (TomS @ June 29 2005,10:50)
So we'd need to put up the whole of mosaic law? :)

Holy smoke! Are the buildings large enough for that?

TG

<!–QuoteBegin>

Quote
If there are other commandments that have a recognizable tie to the cultural and historical sources of lawmaking in this country, then why not?? There are numerous examples in our government that already do this. You’re familiar with the history of law frieze on the Supreme Court building, right??

Sure but these are in historical/informational contexts, which the Court said is OK? Governments should not be putting up the 10 Commandments in public areas on public property. Even if this country originated in Judeo/Christian roots, it should not promote that religion. There are lot’s of people living here now, that are not Christians.
Quote (TomS @ June 29 2005,10:50)
So we'd need to put up the whole of mosaic law? :)

In tribute to your brevity: I already answered that question above.
Quote (ksdb @ June 29 2005,12:09)
Quote (TomS @ June 29 2005,10:50)
So we'd need to put up the whole of mosaic law? :)

In tribute to your brevity: I already answered that question above.

Yep. :)
Quote (TomS @ June 29 2005,12:18)
Quote (ksdb @ June 29 2005,12:09)
Quote (TomS @ June 29 2005,10:50)
So we'd need to put up the whole of mosaic law? :)

In tribute to your brevity: I already answered that question above.

Yep. :)

! :)

Quote (Mr Soul @ June 29 2005,11:41)
<!–QuoteBegin>
Quote
If there are other commandments that have a recognizable tie to the cultural and historical sources of lawmaking in this country, then why not?? There are numerous examples in our government that already do this. You’re familiar with the history of law frieze on the Supreme Court building, right??

Sure but these are in historical/informational contexts, which the Court said is OK? Governments should not be putting up the 10 Commandments in public areas on public property. Even if this country originated in Judeo/Christian roots, it should not promote that religion. There are lot’s of people living here now, that are not Christians.

How is it you missed the part where I already mentioned historical context??

I do have a problem with the oversimplification that Judeo-Christian = One Religion. The concept of separating church from state was built on a much more specific concern than that of segregating out general religious influences on culture, morality, and social and governmental structure.