Swift Boat Vets - poor investigators at best

Liars at worst…

This keeps coming up again & again but the SBV’s (for lies) did not disprove Kerry & Rasmussen’s side of the story on the facts surrounding Kerry’s Bronze Star and his third Purple Heart.

They attempt to not only paint Kerry as an opportunist but an outright liar & coward, which IMO is disgraceful (however we are in an election year). They use as evidence their own eye witness accounts which differ from Kerry and others, and an after-action report which they claim Kerry wrote but offered not hard proof of that claim. In fact the report has the initials “KJW” on it, which John O’Neil claims indicates Kerry wrote the document - go figure that one!

For all those who want to read about it, the WP has a very detailed article on exactly what happened that day in March 13, 1969, and the controversies being brouht up today - Swift Boat Accounts Incomplete.

From all I’ve read & heard, these SWV’s have a personal axe to grind with Kerry & a strong political motivation to see him lose his bit for President. But it’s shamefull to degrade a man’s honor & medals by saying he didn’t deserve them & lied to get them in the first place, without offering any real proof.

STOP THE SMEAR!!! :angry:

This sort of stuff really ticks me off. Kerry went to Vietnam and defended his country. The fact that he only served a few months over there or 2 years doesn’t matter. He risked his life and doesn’t deserve what he is getting. I also believe he came back afterwards and wanted to put an end to it all. I can’t believe people actually try and say he was betraying his country by trying to stop a war. Same as now. Everyone has the right to protest.

George Bush also served his country. He spent years in the National Guard. He held a risky job flying jet aircraft. Simply becuase he didn’t serve in an active capacity the last few months doesn’t mean anything. This is still common place today. I had a girlfriend once that just stopped going to weekend drills. The policy at the time was after (I think) 6 or 9 months the soldier was put on inactive status.

There are so many people out there that don’t even consider serving. It doesn’t matter in what capacity you serve if you are serving your country.

"There are so many people out there that don’t even consider serving. It doesn’t matter in what capacity you serve if you are serving your country. "

Right on.

I served my country by protesting the Vietnam War :laugh:

uh, thanks!

Lest we forget, there was a draft then. George Bush had his daddy’s influence get him into the guard so he wouldn’t have to serve in Vietnem. Kerry on the other hand could have done the same thing but felt it was his duty to serve where ever his country sent him. He enlisted. In hind sight, might not seem like a big deal, but from a man who was a few months from the draft myself at that time, I can tell you that the difference is huge. One defended our country cause he believed in it and the other did the rich mans draft dodge.



There are so many people out there that don’t even consider serving.

Ya gotta remember, that was not an option then. You either were drafted or went to jail.

I posted this before:

Who Performed Military Service



David Bonior: Staff Sgt., Air Force 1968-72
Leonard Boswell: Lt. Col., Army 1956-76; Vietnam, DFCs, etc
Jimmy Carter: Seven years in the Navy
Wesley Clark: U.S. Army 1966-2000, Vietnam, silver star, purple heart
Max Cleland: Captain, Army 1965-68; Silver/bronze Stars, Vietnam
Bill Clinton: Did not serve
Tom Daschle: 1st Lt., Air Force SAC 1969-72
Gray Davis: Army Captain in Vietnam, bronze Star
John Edwards: Did not serve
Richard Gephardt: Air National Guard, 1965-71
John Glenn: WWII and Korea; six DFCs; Air Medal w/18 Clusters
Al Gore: enlisted Aug. 1969; sent to Vietnam as journalist
Tom Harkin: Lt., Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74
Howell Heflin: Silver Star
Fritz Hollings: Army officer in WWII; bronze Star
Daniel Inouye: Army 1943-47; Medal of Honor, WWII
Ted Kennedy: Army, 1951-53
Bob Kerrey: Lt. j.g. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam
John Kerry: Lt., Navy 1966-70; Silver/Purple stars, purple hearts
Tom Lantos: Served in Hungarian underground in WWII
George McGovern: Silver Star & DFC during WWII
Walter Mondale: Army 1951-1953
Pete Peterson: Air Force Captain, POW. Purple Heart, Silver Star, etc
Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52; bronze Star, Korea
Jack Reed: Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91
Chuck Robb: U.S. Marine Corps, 1961-70, Vietnam
Pete Stark: Air Force 1955-57
Mike Thompson: Staff sergeant, 173rd Airborne, Purple Heart


Spencer Abraham: Did not serve
Eliot Abrams: Did not serve
Richard Armitage: U.S. Navy, three tours in Vietnam
John Ashcroft: Did not serve
Roy Blunt: Did not serve
Michael Bloomberg: Did not serve
George H.W. Bush: Youngest Navy pilot in WW II; awarded DFC
George W. Bush: Texas Air Nat. Guard; didn’t take physical; suspended from flying
Jeb Bush: Did not serve
Saxby Chambliss: Did not serve. Attacked Cleland’s patriotism
Dick Cheney: Did not serve
Christopher Cox: Did not serve
Tom DeLay: Did not serve
Bob Dole: Army in WWII, bronze star, two purple hearts
Bob Dornan: Enlisted after fighting was over in Korea
John Engler: Did not serve
Douglas Feith: Did not serve
Gerald Ford: Lt. Commander, Navy in WWII
Bill Frist: Did not serve
Newt Gingrich: Did not serve
Rudy Giuliani: Did not serve
Lindsey Graham: National Guard lawyer
Phil Gramm: Did not serve
Chuck Hagel: Served in Vietnam, two bronze stars and purple heart
Dennis Hastert: Did not serve
Tim Hutchison: Did not serve
Jack Kemp: Did not serve. “Knee problem,” continued in NFL for 8 years
Jon Kyl: Did not serve
Trent Lott: Did not serve
Richard Lugar: Intelligence officer in Navy 1957-1960
John McCain: POW in Vietnam, Silver star, Legion of Merit, DFC, many more
Mitch McConnell: Did not serve
John McHugh: Did not serve
George Pataki: Did not serve
Richard Perle: Did not serve
Colin Powell: 35 years in Army, 4-star general
Dan Quayle: Journalism unit of the Indiana National Guard
Ronald Reagan: Served in WWII making movies
Tom Ridge: U.S. Army in Vietnam, bronze star
Dana Rohrabacher: Did not serve
Karl Rove: Did not serve
Don Rumsfeld: served in Navy (1954-57) as flight instructor
Rick Santorum: Did not serve
Arnold Schwarzenegger: AWOL from Austrian army base
Richard Shelby: Did not serve
JC Watts: Did not serve
Vin Weber: Did not serve
Paul Wolfowitz: Did not serve

Pundits, Preachers, and Judges

Bill Bennett: Did not serve
Wolf Blitzer: Did not serve
Pat Buchanan: Did not serve
William Buckley: U.S. Army in WWII
Charlie Daniels: Did not serve
Lou Dobbs: Did not serve
Paul Gigot: Did not serve
Sean Hannity: Did not serve
Bill Kristol: Did not serve
Jim Lehrer: U.S. Marine Corps
Rush Limbaugh: Did not serve
Chris Matthews: Did not serve
Michael Medved: Did not serve
Ted Nugent: Did not serve
Bill O’Reilly: Did not serve
Dan Rather: U.S. Army Reserve
Ralph Reed: Did not serve
Michael Savage: Did not serve
Antonin Scalia: Did not serve
Kenneth Starr: Did not serve
Clarence Thomas: Did not serve
John Wayne: Did not serve
George Will: Did not serve

Quote (DrGuitar @ Oct. 28 2004,00:38)
Ya gotta remember, that was not an option then. You either were drafted or went to jail.

Oh no my friend, there was a third .....
Remember ? America's favorite Draft Dodger .........

Ali bin Gali :cool:

Question: Who did you support in '96 ?

The commie, womanizing draft dodger ....
or the WWII decorated (two Purple Hearts and Bronze Star) twice wounded combat infantry officer War Hero ?

Infidel ... even you must see the humor in the Radical Left
suppoting a self confessed War Criminal ..... :laugh:

Tim Russert confronted Kerry with his own words from 1971 on Meet the Press. Kerry had said, during an April 18, 1971, appearance on Meet the Press: "There are all kinds of atrocities and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free-fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50-caliber machine guns which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search-and-destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare. All of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down."

To this day, Kerry refuses to estimate how many innocent women and children
he intentionally burned to death in the villages he set ablaze.

Clinton was not a draft dodger.

They ended the draft the year I turned 18. I was seriously considering moving to Canada at the time.

"Clinton was not a draft dodger."

Didn’t he as much as admit he was at one point?

I supposed it depends on what the meaning of draft dodger is, huh?

“It depends what the definition of is is…”

Look it up Clark: “A draft dodger is someone who is drafted and illegally refuses to serve”.

Clinton was NOT a draft dodger unless of course, Cheney is one by your definition.


I am not making a call either way, as it would indict my father as one I would guess!

I just thought at one point Clinton had said he was “dodging” it by going to england.

I could be and probably am, wrong.


Sure lots of people “dodged” the draft like Clinton & Cheney did, but that’s just an expression, not being a draft dodger. To my knowledge, Clinton was never drafted, i.e., he got deferrments just like Cheney did (although didn’t Cheney get 5 of them?).

Quote (MidnightToker @ Oct. 28 2004,11:34)
Sure lots of people "dodged" the draft like Clinton & Cheney did, but that's just an expression, not being a draft dodger. To my knowledge, Clinton was never drafted, i.e., he got deferrments just like Cheney did (although didn't Cheney get 5 of them?).

Col. Homes Notarized Statement
As Entered in Congressional Record (Page: H5551) 7/30/93

... " present polls show that there is the imminent danger to our country of a draft dodger
becoming Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States."

February 16, 1968 - "The Johnson administration unexpectedly abolished graduate deferments."
--[Wash Post Sep 13 92]

March 20, 1968 - Clinton, age 21, is classified 1-A, eligible for induction, as he nears graduation from Georgetown.
--[Wash Post Sep 13 92]
Bill Clinton was the only man of his prime draft age classified1-A by that draft board in 1968 whose pre-induction physical examination was put off for 10.5 months. This delay was more than twice as long as anyone else and more than five times longer than most area men of comparable eligibility.
--[Los Angeles Times Sep 02 92]

December 12 (approx.) - December 31, 1969:
Comment: After visiting Norway with Father McSorley, Clinton's movements and activities are unknown until he arrives in Moscow on December 31, 1969. There are a lot of questions as to who Clinton met and where he went during this time period.

December 31, 1969 - January 6, 1970: Clinton travels to Moscow. He later said "relations between our two countries were pretty good then." He then described his visit as "a very friendly time, a good atmosphere."
Despite Clinton's claim that January 1970 was "a time of détente," relations between the United States and the Soviet Union were anything but warm. The Soviets were supplying the North Vietnamese with advisors and anti-aircraft weapons.

September 7, 1992: Col. Eugene Holmes, USA Ret., signs a notarized statement in which he asserts that "there is the imminent danger to our country of a draft dodger becoming Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States." He later writes that "I believe that he (Clinton) purposefully deceived me, using the possibility of joining the ROTC as a ploy to work with the draft board to delay his induction and get a new draft reclassification."
Brief Background on Colonel Holmes

Colonel Eugene Holmes is a highly decorated officer of the United States Army. He is a survivor of the Bataan Death March and three and a half years as a POW of the Japanese. He served 32 years in the army before retiring with 100% disability. His decorations include the Silver Star, 2 Bronze Stars, 2 Legions of Merit, the Army Commendation Medal and many others.
During the Vietnam War, he personally inducted both his sons into the service--one for 3 years as a regular army enlisted man, and the other as a commissioned officer (after he had completed ROTC training).

Col. Homes Notarized Statement
As Entered in Congressional Record (Page: H5551) 7/30/93
September 7, 1992. Memorandum for Record:
Subject: Bill Clinton and the University of Arkansas ROTC Program:
There have been many unanswered questions as to the circumstances surrounding Bill Clinton's involvement with the ROTC department at the University of Arkansas. Prior to this time I have not felt the necessity for discussing the details. The reason I have not done so before is that my poor physical health (a consequence of participation in the Bataan Death March and the subsequent three and a half years interment in Japanese POW camps) has precluded me from getting into what I felt was unnecessary involvement. However, present polls show that there is the imminent danger to our country of a draft dodger becoming Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States. The tremendous implications of the possibility of his becoming Commander-in-Chief of the United States Armed Forces compels me now to comment on the facts concerning Mr. Clinton's evasion of the draft. This account would not have been imperative had Bill Clinton been completely honest with the American public concerning this matter. But as Mr. Clinton replied on a news conference this evening (September 5, 1992) after being asked another particular about his dodging the draft,
"Almost everyone concerned with these incidents are dead. I have no more comments to make". Since I may be the only person living who can give a first hand account of what actually transpired, I am obligated by my love for my country and my sense of duty to divulge what actually happened and make it a matter of record.
Bill Clinton came to see me at my home in 1969 to discuss his desire to enroll in the ROTC program at the University of Arkansas. We engaged in an extensive, approximately two (2) hour interview. At no time during this long conversation about his desire to join the program did he inform me of his involvement, participation and actually organizing protests against the United States involvement in South East Asia. He was shrewd enough to realize that had I been aware of his activities, he would not
have been accepted into the ROTC program as a potential officer in the United States Army.
The next day I began to receive phone calls regarding Bill Clinton's draft status. I was informed by the draft board that it was of interest to Senator Fullbright's office that Bill Clinton, a Rhodes Scholar, should be admitted to the ROTC program. I received several such calls. The general message conveyed by the draft board to me was that Senator Fullbright's office was putting pressure on them and that they needed my help. I then made the necessary arrangements to enroll Mr. Clinton into the ROTC
program at the University of Arkansas.
I was not "saving" him from serving his country, as he erroneously thanked me for in his letter from England (dated December 3,1969). I was making it possible for a Rhodes Scholar to serve in the military as an officer. In retrospect I see that Mr. Clinton had no intention of following through with his agreement to join the Army ROTC program at the University of Arkansas or to attend the University of Arkansas Law School. I had explained to him the necessity of enrolling at the University of Arkansas as a student in order to be eligible to take the ROTC program at the University. He never enrolled at the University of Arkansas, but instead enrolled at Yale after attending Oxford. I believe that he purposely deceived me, using the possibility of joining the
ROTC as a ploy to work with the draft board to delay his induction and get a new draft classification.
The December 3rd letter written to me by Mr. Clinton, and subsequently taken from the files by Lt. Col. Clint Jones, my executive officer, was placed into the ROTC files so that a record would be available in case the applicant should again petition to enter the ROTC program. The information in that letter alone would have restricted Bill Clinton from ever qualifying to be an officer in the United States Military. Even more significant was his lack of veracity in purposefully defrauding the military by deceiving me, both in concealing his anti-military activities overseas and his counterfeit intentions for later military service. These actions cause me to question both his patriotism and his integrity. When I consider the caliber, the bravery, and the patriotism of the fine young soldiers whose deaths I have witnessed, and others whose funerals I have attended.... When I reflect on not only the willingness but eagerness that so many of them displayed in their earnest desire to defend and serve their country, it is untenable and incomprehensible to me that a man who was not merely unwilling to serve his country, but actually protested against its military, should ever be in the position of Commander-in-Chief of our armed Forces.
I write this declaration not only for the living and future generations, but for those who fought and died for our country. If space and time permitted I would include the names of the ones I knew and fought with, and along with them I would mention my brother Bob, who was killed during World War II and is buried in Cambridge, England (at the age of 23, about the age Bill Clinton was when he was over in England protesting the war). I have agonized over whether or not to submit this statement to the American people. But, I realize that even though I served my country by being in the military for over 32 years, and having gone through the ordeal of months of combat under the worst of conditions followed by years of imprisonment by the Japanese,it is not enough. I'm writing these comments to let everyone know that I love my country more than I do my own personal security and well-being. I will go to my grave loving these United States of America and the liberty for which so many men have
fought and died. Because of my poor physical condition this will be my final statement. I will make no further comments to any of the media regarding this issue.
Eugene Holmes
Colonel, U.S.A., Ret.
September 1992

Clinton is old news. I really heard enough about him for more than 8 years from Rush Limbaugh.

The fact of the matter is Iraq has the same potential of becoming just like vietnam. I believe alot of people are working very hard to see that it’s not, present administration included.

Toker, when you say Bush took the rich man’s way out by getting into the National Guard, you must also be saying that only rich people were in the National Guard. If not, then no legitimate proof has been shown (that I am aware of) that says anyone did Bush any favors. Also, to say that you were considering going to Canada was an option at the time. I wouldn’t blame you if you did. My uncle served in vietnam, and he hasn’t been the same since. In light of everything we know to be true about vietnam, it was “THE WRONG WAR, AT THE WRONG PLACE, AT THE WRONG TIME”.

The reality is, no matter what decision someone made back then was the right decision for them, Clinton Included. Vietnam never posed a threat to this country. Iraq did. Atleast there is some evidence that Iraq was worth doing, and a majority of people, right or wrong, agree.

Toker, when you say Bush took the rich man's way out by getting into the National Guard, you must also be saying that only rich people were in the National Guard.
Did I say that - please show me where?
Quote (TomS @ Oct. 28 2004,06:10)
I posted this before:

Who Performed Military Service

Nice try, Infidel ..... :laugh:

Though I found your posting entertaining, it is not at all
comprehensively accurate. Here is an excerpt from the CRS Report for
Congress showing the real statistics. It clearly shows that
Republicans have more veterans currently serving our federal
government than does the Democratic Party

Does this really matter .... ? No.

Ali bin Gali :cool:


Military Service:
There are 154 Members of the 108th Congress who have had some form
of military service, some 14 fewer than in the 107th Congress. The
House has 118 veterans: 70 Republicans and 48 Democrats, including
one woman, who is a Republican. In the Senate, 35 Members are
veterans: 19 Republicans and 16 Democrats. They have served
in World War II, the Korean War, Vietnam, the Persian Gulf, and
Kosovo, and during times of peace, as well as in the Reserves and
the National Guard. One Senator is a former Secretary of the Navy.
There has been a steady decline in the number of Members
who have served in the military, which may be attributed in part to
the end of the Selective Service System draft in 1973.

Forest Gore, Mmmmm ...... Well those flash bulbs can be tricky :laugh: