Texas pastor electrocuted during baptism

Quote (BillClarke @ Nov. 06 2005,20:00)
Quote (pastorbrian @ Oct. 31 2005,13:38)
... a new low, even for you...
... to do this is absolutely wrong...
... puts you in a new category of loser in my eyes...

Gee, no judgements being passed there, eh?

Brian, if you are in fact a 'pastor' then I can only thank the Lord that you are not the pastor in my church.

Mike was expressing his own sense of humour. It is dark humour, I grant you. But it is his and he is entirely entitled to it.

Personally I, too, happen to have a rather dark sense of humour and I, too, found this story amusing.

If that is 'low' 'wrong' and makes me a 'loser' in your eyes then so be it.

You are entitled to your ignorant, self-righteous, and intolerant point of view. Go with God.

Bill.

Bill-
I'm really sorry you feel that way.
fair enough to say that Mike is entitled to his brand of humor.
But even for him, this was over the line, IMHO.

I had a whole response to your rant, but it's not really neccessary. Someone who finds humor in a tragic death and the orphaning of 3 kids and a wife in front of many people is a loser. If you find this funny and "amusing" then...you have said all you need to about yourself. I don't need to add anything else.
I guess you are right Bill, I can't tolerate that.

PB
Quote (Guest @ Nov. 08 2005,01:35)
Bill-
I'm really sorry you feel that way.
fair enough to say that Mike is entitled to his brand of humor.
But even for him, this was over the line, IMHO.

I had a whole response to your rant, but it's not really neccessary. Someone who finds humor in a tragic death and the orphaning of 3 kids and a wife in front of many people is a loser. If you find this funny and "amusing" then...you have said all you need to about yourself. I don't need to add anything else.
I guess you are right Bill, I can't tolerate that.

PB

The sad part is, I believe you.

I believe that you genuinely cannot set aside your personal world-view and look at things from the other person's perspective.

And it is because I believe you that I also believe that I am wasting my time trying to make you understand.

The measure of our humanity is not how far we will extend ourselves for those who think like we do but instead it is how far we will extend ourselves for those who do not.

The heathens, the uneducated, even those whom you might classify as 'evil' are all capable of bonding with those of like mind - that is no achievement. It can be accomplished without so much as a second thought. The difficult task is to be able to do so with those who think differently than ourselves. Those whose values do not reflect our own. To realize that those people may hold their world-view just as fervently as we hold our own; to respect that world-view enough to not require that it change in order to respect its holder.

This is called tolerance. And its absence is responsible for a large part of the so-called 'evil' in our world.

PB - go back to the original post. It was not necessarily meant to be funny but just a post.

The part that was supposed to be funny was “Are the people from Waco reallly Wacko?” but that was obviously lost, and you all assumed that I was making fun of the man who died.

This story was covered on Drudge & all the major news sources. Originally, I was just repeating it.

Bill- I think you are confusing tolerance with acceptance.
I can understand, even empathize with those who have a different worldview. In fact, this is what my job and life’s calling ask me to do each day, to come alongside those who are not like me and build relationships. I have never, in my post, reponse or otherwise, classified anyone as “evil” because they differ from me.
Sad, stupid, and “loser-like” yes…but not evil.

You said the measure of our humanity is how far we will extend ourselves towards those who differ from us. I agree, to a certain extent and this was why I responded to Mike in the first place.
There was no empathy, or even compassion in the post, just another thinly veiled attack at Evangelicals/Christians who Mike sees as “wacko”.
He holds to this as his worldview,as expressed numerous times here.

Those who find humor or even mild amusement in this event are wrong.
This is what I can’t accept, my conscience, convictions and my Savior won’t allow me to.

Tolerance of different ideas, sure.
Tolerance of different opinions…no problem.
Tolerance at the expense of innocent people…no way.

PB

by the way…spin it however you want, Mike.

You found it funny that someone would die in a tragic, public death.
There was no “wacko” commentary on Drudge etc…

Yes the humor was lost on me, and hopefully on anyone with decency and anyone who values human life.
Nice try.

Quote (pastorbrian @ Nov. 08 2005,12:52)
Yes the humor was lost on me, and hopefully on anyone with decency and anyone who values human life.
Nice try.

This is an interesting comment. My question to anyone who would post such a statement is, "How do you feel about the war in Iraq?" Are you against the war or do you believe that the war is a necessity?

PB, I would also be careful on throwing stones at people who do not carry your view of "decency". Your statement, by the words you have chosen, makes a personal judgement on others. Maybe as a "pastor" you feel qualified to judge other people. I personally would like to leave that one to God.

Quote (BillClarke @ Nov. 08 2005,13:00)
And it is because I believe you that I also believe that I am wasting my time trying to make you understand.

I am not confusing tolerance with acceptance. You yourself said that you could not tolerate it, you did not say that you could not accept it.

Quote (pastorbrian @ Nov. 08 2005,13:47)
…this is what my job and life’s calling ask me to do each day, to come alongside those who are not like me and build relationships…


But to what purpose, Brian? To respect the world-views of those people who are not like you? Or to seek to change their world-view to one you find more acceptable or tolerable?

That, you see, is the difference.

DrGuitar is quite right in observing that the very words you choose betray the judgement in your attitude.

But as I said, I am wasting my time.

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PB - go back to the original post. It was not necessarily meant to be funny but just a post.

The part that was supposed to be funny was “Are the people from Waco reallly Wacko?” but that was obviously lost, and you all assumed that I was making fun of the man who died.


“All” Mike? You obviously did not read my post or those of others, but, what’s new? :D

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Bill-
I’m really sorry you feel that way.
fair enough to say that Mike is entitled to his brand of humor.
But even for him, this was over the line, IMHO.

I had a whole response to your rant, but it’s not really neccessary.

“Rant” Brian?

You have to be careful about using words like that mate, and think about who it really demeans, the person being attacked by that word, or the person making the attack.

(There again, if the word was directed at Toker, and not at Bill, then I’m behind you all the way! :D)

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I have never, in my post, reponse or otherwise, classified anyone as “evil” because they differ from me.
Sad, stupid, and “loser-like” yes…but not evil.


Ach well, that makes it all fine then doesn’t it. :)

Ali

Quote (Ali_G @ Nov. 08 2005,14:33)
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I have never, in my post, reponse or otherwise, classified anyone as “evil” because they differ from me.
Sad, stupid, and “loser-like” yes…but not evil.


Ach well, that makes it all fine then doesn’t it. :)

Ali

ROFL…
:laugh:

Ali… you crack me up…

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There was no “wacko” commentary on Drudge etc…

PB - if I had just made the post, with no commentary, would your reaction have been any different? No - correct?

I guess I’m not the only one who thought this was funny - Darwin Awards.

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To recognize neither the Enumclaw horse banger nor the self executing Baptist TX pastor (in Waco, yet!) just doesn’t jibe with the stated purpose–maybe that changed?


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There again, if the word was directed at Toker, and not at Bill, then I’m behind you all the way!

And you know where to go too!

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There again, if the word was directed at Toker, and not at Bill, then I’m behind you all the way!

And you know where to go too!


I’ve probably been there Mike, but if not, I undoubtedly will. :D
Quote (pastorbrian @ Nov. 08 2005,13:47)
This is what I can't accept, my conscience, convictions and my Savior won't allow me to.

By your 'Saviour' I assume that you mean Jesus Christ.

I suspect that you do not know Jesus Christ - not even a little bit. If you did you would know that Jesus was all about tolerance.

Jesus said many things but among them was this: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart. Love Him with all your soul, and love Him with all your mind. This is the first and greatest law. The second law of God is like it. 'Love your neighbour as you love yourself.' All that is written in the books of the law and the books of the prophets is about these two laws."

Note that He said "the Lord your God". He did not say 'My Father' or 'My God' - He said 'your God'.

And "Love your neighbour as you love yourself". Do you love your world-view? Do you want it to be respected? Do you wish to be respected despite someone else's disagreement with your world-view? Then love your neighbour as yourself.

Jesus also said: "I give you a new law. That law is, 'Love each other.' In fact, He didn't just 'say' it; He made it a law (commandment). How could it be possible to love each other without respecting each other's world-view? How can you possibly be said to love me if you disrespect/seek to change/condemn/pass judgement on/ my world-view?

Jesus said this; Jesus said that. But Jesus COMMANDED that we 'Love each other'.

If you knew Jesus, you would know that.

Though we must also be willing to meet PB halfway and understand why he felt the way he did. Yes, there is a dark sense of irony/humor in the story. At the same time, someone did die which is tragic… It all depends on what you focus on. Walking a mile in a man’s moccasins…

In a perfect world this is how it would unfold…

PB: Gee whiz fellers, I can understand how you might find humor in this as taking electrical equipment into water is not the brightest thing to do, but to me this is really a tragedy. What a terrible thing to happen to this poor man and his family.

Toker et al: Gee whiz, we’re real sorry. We didn’t think of it that way. I see how you could see take it that way.

PB: No big deal. I know you didn’t mean it in a malicious way.

Toker: Yeah, well, I’ll think twice next time. However, I hope you can see how this is indeed a strange situation.

group hug



Instead everyone has to be “right and righteous”. Quick to attack and assume we’re being attacked. Well done. Have any of you ever considered looking for the good in his fellow man? Or are we that insecure that we have to be “right” and prove ourselves all the time? Oh, wait. This is the “Anything else” part of the forum. That’s why we are here. To stroke our insecurities.

Why do I feel like a high school guidance counselor around here sometimes? Sheesh… Peach power.

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Toker et al: Gee whiz, we’re real sorry. We didn’t think of it that way. I see how you could see take it that way.


Am I al? :(

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Instead everyone has to be “right and righteous”. Quick to attack and assume we’re being attacked. Well done. Have any of you ever considered looking for the good in his fellow man?


After half a dozen pint of special brew, I can be both righteous and right.

And I can do this other trick simultaneously too!

See, I just need to wrap my…

Bollox! It fell off! But, I’m sure I managed to do it once before. :(

Ach well, thank god this life is only a practise! LOL

Ali.

EDIT:

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Why do I feel like a high school guidance counselor ?


Dunno Bubba, that’s your personal fantasy, not ours.

But, when you find one, ask her if she’s got a sister with low standards, Ok? :;):

:p

:D
Quote (Ali_G @ Nov. 09 2005,00:11)
Toker et al: Gee whiz, we're real sorry. We didn't think of it that way. I see how you could see take it that way.


Am I al? :(

Instead everyone has to be "right and righteous". Quick to attack and assume we're being attacked. Well done. Have any of you ever considered looking for the good in his fellow man?

After half a dozen pint of special brew, I can be both righteous and right.

And I can do this other trick simultaneously too!

See, I just need to wrap my.............

Bollox! It fell off! But, I'm sure I managed to do it once before. :(

Ach well, thank god this life is only a practise! LOL

Ali.

EDIT:

Why do I feel like a high school guidance counselor ?

Dunno Bubba, that's your personal fantasy, not ours.

But, when you find one, ask her if she's got a sister with low standards, Ok? :;):

:p

:D
Your "al" as much as I am a guidance counselor. :;):

Bill- thanks for the sermon. Bad heremeneutics, but I know that they do flow out of your worldview.
It’s all good to attack my beliefs, ask me to tolerate everything, and point fingers. I’m not offended. I do know Jesus and I know that he would be offended by someone finding humor in another’s death.
You can attack me all you wish, but you never did address the real issue. You thought it funny that someone died.
I can accept the justifications, but they change nothing.

If Mike didn’t mean it malisciously, fine. If you found it funny, but in a tragic and empathetic way… fine. Somthing needed to be said and I said it.
PB

PB - I didn’t mean the post to be maliscious, however you didn’t answer my question. Wouldn’t you have assumed that same thing if I have just posted the link with no commentary?

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You can attack me all you wish, but you never did address the real issue.


Just a quick question… where is the line between attack and disagree?


I just get the feeling that society is taking on this attitude that what one believes cannot be questioned… Persecuted no, but questioned, certainly. I hear stuff this all the time from lots of folks in a martyr like demeaner. Whatever happened to dialogue with out arrogance, assumption of intentions, or judgement? Eh, I am just some dumb kid. I just find a lot of arrogance in most arguments any more. Remember, war stands for We Are Right… when none of us truely are.

Quote (pastorbrian @ Nov. 09 2005,12:14)
Bill- thanks for the sermon. Bad heremeneutics, but I know that they do flow out of your worldview.
It’s all good to attack my beliefs, ask me to tolerate everything, and point fingers. I’m not offended. I do know Jesus and I know that he would be offended by someone finding humor in another’s death.
You can attack me all you wish, but you never did address the real issue. You thought it funny that someone died.
I can accept the justifications, but they change nothing.

If Mike didn’t mean it malisciously, fine. If you found it funny, but in a tragic and empathetic way… fine. Somthing needed to be said and I said it.
PB

Brian,

Since heremeneutica is both science and art I fail to see how it can ever be ‘bad’. It can be ‘not to your taste’, but ‘bad’ is a judgement. You seem to have a bit of a problem leaving those out of your comments “…but I know that they do flow out of your worldview.” 'Nuff said on that issue, I suppose.

You ‘know’ that Jesus would be offended. Then I can only repeat: you do not know Jesus Christ - not even a little bit.

You may suspect that Jesus would be offended…
You may believe that Jesus would be offended…
You may be convinced that Jesus would be offended…

But to claim that you ‘know’ what Jesus would or would not feel is the height of conceit.

Knowledge is not a matter of extreme belief. ‘Knowing’ does not even appear on the ‘belief’ continuum. Believing something very, very strongly does not constitute ‘knowing’ it. Facts can be known - beliefs, by definition, cannot.

I have not attacked you. Believe me, you would ‘know’ if I did. What you identify as the ‘real issue’ is one that I addressed in my very first post on this subject: Yes, I found humour in someone’s death. That is correct. It is a ‘fact’. Belief is not required here; I DID, in fact, find humour in it. I thought it funny that someone died.

Double space.
End of paragraph.

The extent of my empathy or my sense of the tragic is none of your darn business. Nothing needed to be said by you or anyone - that illusion is entirely in your mind.

If you could let go of your judgements and embrace the true message of Christ I suspect that you would understand.

But, again, I am wasting my time.