Therapy session.......

I wanted to continue the discussion from the “contest voting” topic. I love self criticism when it’s honest.
So lets talk about how we hear ourselves, along with aging skills etc…

I think that when you start doing something, you’re easily pleased with the results, it’s new, it’s exciting, Wow. you’re a performer!
Eventually the deeper you get into things you begin to hear how good other people are, you begin to hear your mistakes that were obscured in a happy pink mist of enthusiasm before and you begin to realise your limitations in the cold critical light of reality. That’s the time to give up.
Of course, if you have the natural talent and it can be nurtured and improved, carry on for as long as you still hear what you want to hear in your work. If you have that talent naturally, it will always be there.

I agree Bruffie - the ‘newness’ of the process makes everything shine. But it is a valuable part of the process, no?
When the shine wears off and reality shows up, that becomes a crucial stage in development. You then have to decide where to take the next step toward. Some folks never get to that point. Some stay glossed over their entire lives. The fact that you can hear things the way you do makes it a valuable tool for change in my mind.
You mentioned our tune you did. I just want to make one point. Another set of ears when you were doing the vocal - someone who is performance/production driven (a producer) - would have actually pulled the best out of you. There are minor spots in the vocal track that could have been re-done, but my lord you did a great job. What I hear is the ‘casualness’ for lack of a better word, of doing a colab from a track someone else had done, being carried over to the relatively seriousness of doing your own tracks. (Which are absolutely wonderful I must say.) I may be way off base with that. Backhand me if I’m wrong.
We have had this discussion before about how we hear ourselves and how others hear us though…
My problem is - I just get lazy.

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The fact that you can hear things the way you do makes it a valuable tool for change in my mind.


That's what I was saying in the other thread. Many, no... MANY performers NEVER reach a level of honesty with themselves where they can see/hear their opportunities for improvement. It took me a few years to realize my guitar skills really were not where I wanted them to be. I'm working on it.

D

PS
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My problem is - I just get lazy.


Also GUILTY...

I hear what your saying Poppa, and yes, I did get very serious over doing that track. But the programming part, you can perfect with time and dedication. Singing, you’ve got it or you ain’t, and the harder I try the worse it gets (If that makes sense)And, I got very blinkered over that song, I wrote the words and I wanted to sing them :)
I put 12 songs that I’d done over the last 2 or 3 years on to disc and stuck them in the car to check the mix (which is where I always check the mix). All of a sudden I start hearing things. Three Tom Spademan songs that I recorded and thought were good suddenly have glaring errors, most of the others all seemed to have some problem or other. One song was ok, which is not a great strike rate.
However, I still love other peoples music and will continue to listen to music as long as I’m on this Earth.
I have to say though that on the contest page there are some outstanding vocal performances that really deserve to be recognised.

Quote: (Diogenes @ Aug. 07 2008, 7:35 PM)

That's what I was saying in the other thread. Many, no... MANY performers NEVER reach a level of honesty with themselves where they can see/hear their opportunities for improvement.

When I was younger I always wondered why some people who could barely sing were legends. Bob Dylan, Leonard Cohen, Neil Young...... Then I got it, they were superb songwriters!

Some people have amazing voices but can't write... there's the rub. I guess that's why Meat Loafs version of Forever Young, and Jimi Hendrix version of All Along the Watchtower are better than Dylans.

I’m kinda torn on this issue, It’s like an error in someones performance, but to me it is them. The human factor.

ARE WE MACHINES? NO.

Otherwise we would just do midi vocals, guitars, drums, etc etc in perfect time and never miss or strain a note.

then you wouldn’t need Bruffie to do a vocal, just a sample of his voice, drop in the notes and voila, perfect Bruffie.
Is this where is heading? If so, I’m bowing out now, not because I think my stuff is perfect, it’s way below average, it’s just I can’t stand to listen to perfect tunes crafted in the “Nashville Mafia Way” Makes me run fer a toilet and get down on me hands and knees to worship in the “Ralph” position.

Good points Ian. Never could stand to hear any of those guys sing.

Don’t throw in the towel just yet. Find your “sweet-spot”, your “niche” and work the heck out of it. I always say on here “I can’t sing.” it’s not entirely true. I CAN sing, I just don’t LIKE to sing. A song that fits my “sweet spot” I think I can do well on.

I’ve heard you Ian. You can sing man. Hang in there eh?

D

PS You should also consider yourself blessed in the writing department as well!

I think that there are two tiers to singing.

Tier 1: Singer has to be close to being on key and on time. This does not have to be perfect, but must be close enough that pitch and timing issues are not distracting. The threshold for being good enough to pass tier 1 is actually pretty low.

Tier 2: The singer has to be able to inject emotion into the music via phrasing, dynamics, voice quality, and detail stuff like note bends. If a singer is good enough at the tier 2 stuff, then tier 1 problems are more easily overlooked. A singer can have perfect tier 1 skills, and still be deadly bad as a singer if there are none of the tier 2 skills. Unfortunately the tier 2 stuff is mysterious and hard to analyze and internalize. This is what separates the legends from the rest of us.

I have an accapello recording of the old time delta blues hero Son House singing “John the Revelator” that I listen to for inspiration. Just his voice, and his hands clapping, and it is fascinating. Is he on key? Heck, I don’t know, it is acappello. Is it pretty? Not really. So how does he get me so wrapped up in the song? Danged if I can explain it, but I can hear it, and feel it. I think that it can take a lifetime to learn the kind of stuff that he is doing, and this is one reason that I think that is a mistake to assume that if you can’t improve your tier I skills, you can’t improve as a singer.

At least that’s my theory, and I’m stickin by it.

T

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just a sample of his voice, drop in the notes and voila, perfect Bruffie.
Is this where is heading? If so, I'm bowing out now,

That may happen down the road Yaz (actors face the same future with CGI) but music - arts in general in my opinion will never be replaced by machine or midi or computer. The human element, the voice, the fingers on the strings, the sound of a particular room, the uniqueness of air moving when recorded, demands humanity, heart and feel.
Having said that I also realize someone years ago must have said the same thing about live theater as related to recorded performances. Surely some player at some time in history had to show these same concerns toward recording.... just a thought. Is it live or paper, wax, ampex, agfa, fuji, western digital SATA or memorex?

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Danged if I can explain it, but I can hear it, and feel it.


That is the heart of the issue in my mind. Moving people emotionally. If you can do that the mechanics don't matter.

I have always considered myself pretty mediocre in my songs.
They are all covers, the production isn’t the best and dogs howl when I sing(?).
But, for me its just a hobby.
The first model car I ever built was a beauty - until I saw it next to others in a local model car building contest.
But, I kept on building them.

I never have been able to sing.
I used to try to sing songs from back in the day…when everyone sang an octave above middle C.
Then I realized I should stick within the Knopfler, Cale, Petty, etc. range.
So I just keep trudging on…as long as no bottles get thrown at me and I don’t have to play behind chicken coop fencing, I’m gonna stick with it.

When Satriani first came out, I was amazed.
My son eventually became just about as good.
We saw Joe in concert and both had the same impression:
Good for about 20 minutes…then just too much…
That was when we both learned that fast riffs wern’t everything - which is good for me since my fastest riff is “Day Tripper”.

Now I am working on “simple” and “clean”.
If people enjoy it, thats good enough for me.

keep on…

cliff

My singing and/or playing is always better if I can just get lost in the moment. If I’m thinking too much about what I’m trying to do, I seldom get anything I’m truly satisfied with. Eventually, being lazy myself, I’ll either give up or settle for something I’m less than thrilled with.

First off, a big hi ya to TSpringer!

2nd, Bruffie has such a unique voice IMHO that when I hear the first note of a song, I know it’s him! So no more talk about not singing there IAN! Besides I love to listen to your vocals and if you give up it’s another loss to the world!

3rd, Poppa, I don’t know son, seems everything is being replaced by puters, (Talent Software) Zombie society wants everything handed to 'em, strap lectrodes to yer temple and think about a tune and it’s recorded, that’s where it’s headed (pun intended)
And with the Cluster F*ck on saturday night live a while back with Ashlee Simpson doing here Villi manilli thang, it’s what the record companies and the masses want I suppose.
Give the people what they want right?
Right?
Right?
I dunno,
Where’s my big piece o chicken!

Musta woke up this morning with a bug up my ass. ???

PREACH IT REVEREND YAZ!! :p

Yes indeed a big HOWDY to TSpringer!

Yaz is also right on the money about Sir Ian. Quit draggin’ your dobber in the dirt and get to writin’ and sangin’ man!

D

I actually had to work today - rare for me - but while I was, I was thinking about this thread and I came to the conclusion that we all who are self critical, to the point of “getting lazy” even to the point of not finishing projects, may have developed some bad attitudes. Hear me out here.

WHAT IF we have lost our first love? The excitement Bruffie mentioned of something new that makes us feel good? Could that be a possibility? Obviously we are not all going to sell millions of CD’s or be heard on the radio all over the world - so what? Why try to record, as if?

Does that make sense or is it just another excuse to compromise?

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Does that make sense or is it just another excuse to compromise?


Did you ever hear of "Paralysis by analysis"? That's what happens to me with my tunes. I get something going and start analyzing it to death. "Is this any good? Am I just being goofy?" etc, etc... Instead of completing ideas, I get 'em half-baked and sit them on the shelf... wondering...

D

Procrastinators R US ? ? ?

I’m the worlds worse for starting and not finishing. Not that I start anal-izing, I just get down right bored. I’ve posted before about everything starts running together for me, songs sound the same, there’s only 12 notes and so many subjects to sing about, nuttin new, but hey it’s my own fault. I need to take a music break sometimes. Maybe now is a good time. Go fishing or something.

Somebody smack me!

The wife told me to get my head outta my arse this morning,LOL. I replied in a manner to get myself in the dog house fer about a month.

Oh well, Joke 'em if they can’t take a f*ck!

Yaz…you’re right man, music is being replaced by computers. People with no musical talent can make big bucks if they get the right break.

Last week, I complained to the DJ at my local Bar because, when the excellent band has thier breaks, he plays the same banging club mixes every week. He said that the bar wouldn’t let him buy any new stuff.
So, to have a laugh, I spent an hour with Acid and a whole selection of loops, put together the usual constant thudding drum and bass, threw in a few sounds and effects here and there, some Electric Violin sounds, couple of guitar breaks etc… Hey Presto, a bullshit piece made with 33 different loops and an hour’s work, no talent required.

Result; He loves it! What is the world coming to????

Quote: (Bruffie @ Aug. 07 2008, 10:35 PM)

Yaz...you're right man, music is being replaced by computers. People with no musical talent can make big bucks if they get the right break.

Last week, I complained to the DJ at my local Bar because, when the excellent band has thier breaks, he plays the same banging club mixes every week. He said that the bar wouldn't let him buy any new stuff.
So, to have a laugh, I spent an hour with Acid and a whole selection of loops, put together the usual constant thudding drum and bass, threw in a few sounds and effects here and there, some Electric Violin sounds, couple of guitar breaks etc.... Hey Presto, a bullshit piece made with 33 different loops and an hour's work, no talent required.

Result; He loves it! What is the world coming to????

I hear you Ian... I dunno what the world is coming to... All I can say is; I HATE THAT "CANNED" SOUNDING D&B thudding bass and drum CRAP!!

This IS one of the downsides to music PC technology. Any doofus with half a brain can download a bunch of canned loops and junk and think he/she's the new Rachmaninoff or something...

It's sort of the "dumbing down" of the musical art...

D

PS It's also why you MUST keep on keepin' on Bruff-meister. It's getting so there's few of us "old school" music hacks left...