This I had to share

religious (Christian etc) persecution

April 25, 2005, 7:52 a.m.
Kingdom’s Religious Wrongs
The religious tyranny in Saudi Arabia is not just Saudis’ businnes.

By Nina Shea

Before boarding his flight to Crawford to meet with President Bush Monday, Saudi Arabia’s Crown Prince Abdullah presided over the arrest of 40 Pakistani Christians on Friday. Their crime? The Pakistanis were caught praying in a private home in the capital Riyadh in violation of the state’s strictly enforced religious law that bans all non-Muslim worship.

As the State Department has determined, there is no religious freedom in Saudi Arabia and everyone there, Muslim or not, must obey the rules of the extreme sharia of the kingdom’s established religion, the Wahhabi interpretation of Islam. The Saudi state indoctrinates its nationals from an early age in the Wahhabi ideology of zero tolerance for the “other.” Government textbooks and publications teach that it is a religious obligation for Muslims to hate Christians and Jews and warn against imitating, befriending, or helping them in any way, or taking part in their festivities and celebrations. The state teaches a Nazi-like hatred for Jews, treats the forged Protocols of the Elders of Zion as historical fact, and avows that the Muslim’s duty is to eliminate the state of Israel.

Though the persecution of the Pakistani Christians is a dramatic example, they and the other non-Muslims among the quarter of the kingdom’s population who are foreign workers are not the only ones to suffer from the denial of religious freedom. Saudi Arabia’s nationals, by law Muslim, find that a broad range of their freedoms are limited because of the state’s monopoly on religious expresssion.

For example, Muslims who follow the Sufi and Shiite traditions are viewed as heretical dissidents and viciously condemned and discriminated against by the state. Regarding those who convert out of Islam, the Saudi ministry of Islamic affairs explicitly asserts in publications Freedom House has acquired, they “should be killed.” Muslims who object to even particular tenets of Wahhabism, such as advocates of greater religious tolerance, also are viewed as the “other” and condemned as “infidels.” Under Saudi law, such “blasphemers” and “apostates” from Islam can be sentenced to death.

Political reformers, too, are crushed on religious grounds. Three Saudi professors have now languished for over a year in prison after proposing that the country adopt a written constitution. Among other charges, their terminology was denounced as un-Islamic or “Western.” State publications condemn democracy itself as un-Islamic. They instill contempt for America because the United States is ruled by “infidel” legislated law, rather than Wahhabi-style Islamic law.

A direct consequence of there being no religious freedom is that every Saudi woman is forced by the state to conform to Wahhabi religious edicts restricting dress, transportation, movement, due-process rights, and the ability to participate in civic life.

The expansion of civil and political freedoms in the kingdom, therefore, hinges on religious freedom.

Since the 9/11 terrorist attacks — and the discovery that two thirds of the hijackers were Saudis — Saudi state ideology has become a matter of U.S. national security. As bad as it is that Wahhabism is Saudi Arabia’s state religion, even worse is that it is the Saudi government’s aim to propagate it and have it replace traditional and moderate interpretations of Islam worldwide, including within the United States. Earlier this year, Freedom House’s Center for Religious Freedom released a report based on a year-long study of the radically intolerant Wahhabi ideology contained in documents spread, published, or otherwise generated by the government of Saudi Arabia and found in the United States.

In one example, a publication for the “Immigrant Muslim” bearing the words “Greetings from the Cultural Department” of the embassy of Saudi Arabia in Washington, D.C., gave detailed instructions on how to “hate” the Christian and Jew: Never greet them first. Never congratulate the infidel on his holiday. Never imitate the infidel. Do not become a naturalized citizen of the United States. Do not wear a graduation gown because this imitates the infidel. The opening fatwa of another a book distributed by the embassy that was published by the Saudi air force responds to a question about a Muslim preacher in a European mosque who taught that it is not right to condemn Jews and Christians as infidels. The Saudi state cleric’s reply emphatically rebukes the Muslim cleric: “He who casts doubts about their infidelity leaves no doubt about his.”

Within worldwide Sunni Islam, followers of Saudi Arabia’s extremist Wahhabi ideology remain a distinct minority. This is evident from the millions of Muslims who have chosen to make America their home and are upstanding, law-abiding citizens and neighbors. It was just such concerned Muslims who first brought these publications to the attention of Freedom House. They did so in the hope of “freeing their communities from ideological strangulation.”

The Saudi state’s propagation of Wahhabi extremism is more than hate speech; it is a totalitarian ideology of hatred that can incite to violence. The fact that this ideology is being mainstreamed within our borders through the efforts of a foreign government demands President Bush’s urgent attention in today’s conversations with Prince Abdullah. With his remarkable State of the Union address that challenged Saudi Arabia to democratize, the president turned a new page in U.S. policy. Some in American policy circles argue that religious freedom, however, is too sensitive to raise. It's too important not to; the first topic on the president’s agenda should be the expansion of religious freedom in the kingdom — for Muslims, as well as the captive Christians.

— Nina Shea is the director of Freedom House's Center for Religious Freedom.

Hours later, Bush and Crown Prince Abdullah hold hands - tell me that something doesn't stink here:

Thats sad there Tom.
I was going to do “caption time” with the picture…but
This is much too serious of an issue to be jokin’ around with.
If there’s one thing I can’t stand it’s religous intolerance. :(

Just goes to show how big money, and big biz really call the shots sometimes. If that where any other country, that we didn’t need oil from, Bush would be talkin about, “Goin’ in ther to free the people and make the world safe for democracy”…BS! :(
Instead he’s rosie~lipin’ up to these “Princess of Oil” :D

And really we don’t have to cow tow to these regims. We have a huge amount of oil right up der in Alaska, but noooo. All the extreem inveronmentalist don’t want it. Afraid that the added volume of pumps and pies would increase pollution. And anyway they probably just sell most of it to Japan, instead of bringin’ it to us. :angry:

What a tangled web we we’ve ther Bush.
nuff said.:slight_smile:


This is our supposedly “religious” president. Such horsesh*t. :angry:

Have you stopped to consider what would happen if the Saudis all of sudden stopped shipping oil to the US? Until we find alternate sources, I hope Dubya keeps kissing their butts. I really don’t want to subject my kids to another “Great Depression”.

I would not have the Presidents job for all the money they can print.


the saudi economy would plummet and they would be forced to capitulate to whatever demands the US set upon them.

assuming of course, the US was smart enough to get most of the other countries that buy from the saudis to join them.

gas prices would skyrocket to unbeleivable proportions at home, and there would be chaos in the streets for a while.

the saudis would play a waiting game, assuming that americans are too weak and dependent on thier convienent excesses of motor vehicles.

more than likely we wouldn’t be able to hold our stance for very long, purely due to our own whininess and stupidity of infrastructure.

this would likely result in a minor compromise that may or may not see any real effect and within a year or ten everything would revert right back to the state it was in before.

i’m sure some small extremeist groups would take this situation to heart for whatever reason, and do some fucked up things in honour of it.

sound about right?

i personally think that america is a junkie and oil is the smack. i think that analogy describes the behaviours and roles of all involved pretty well, when translated to the microcosm.

so how do you get a junkie off the smack? cold turkey is rough, but works the fastest. methadone also works. substituting the harmful drug with a less harmful drug… for example… hybrid cars.

buying cleaner smack, having a better relationship with your dealer, or making your own (alaska) is not the answer.

getting off the smack one way or the other is the answer.


Maybe old Michael Moore wasn’t so wacky after all. :laugh:

Richard Clarke describes some of this history in his book. The Saudi’s allowed the religious fanatics to come & then the Royal family realizes these guys might try to overthrow them (surprise, surprise). It’s a repressive country that we support. We set up bases there & Bin Laden gets pissed & starts a holy war against us. We invade another oil rich country (Iraq) and we still can’t get enough oil. It’s gonna get worse before it gets better.

Regarding the meeting with the Prince, these are the quotes that you can find on FOX & MSNBC:


The Crown Prince understands it’s very important to make sure prices are reasonable. High oil prices damage markets — he knows that. We’re going to talk about his country’s capacity — it’s an important subject,…

A high oil price will damage markets, and he knows that. I look forward to talking to him about that,” the president said as he and Vice President Dick Cheney awaited the arrival of the Saudi officials. “We’ll talk about his country’s capacity.

This is what he actually said:

The Crown Prince ahhhhhh ahhhhh understands that very important for there to be a ahhhhh - make sure prices ahhh are reasonable. High oil prices damage markets and ahhhh he knows that. I look forward to talking to him about that but, as well as ahhhhh talk about his country’s capacity. It’s an important subject.
getting off the smack one way or the other is the answer.

You are correct sir! I wonder when our "leaders" are gonna figure this out? Fuel cell technology for automobiles looks promising but I think everybody is scared s$%tless about the cost of building the infrastructure to support it. I have a really sweet idea on that issue but not enough money and time to explore it. Anybody have a few million to start up a new business? I betcha the oil fiends would make us disappear pretty darn quick though......


Nah, the Saudis would just start selling more oil to China. :;):

Fuel cells are not it. I think we should have developed the turbine car, personally. When it ran on peanut oil it smelled like cookies.

Anyway, we know how close the Bushes and the Saudies have been over the years. This is not simply about oil or economics - it is about raw power - Bush is no Christian.

Hydrogen - Look at all the fire the Hindenburg made. It’s made from water - the byproduct from making hydrogen is oxygen and the “exhaust” is water - it combines back with oxygen when it burns. It’s about as pure as it gets.

Yeah, I know there’s lot’s of technical reasons it’s hard to use, but that’s what research is for.

This is not simply about oil or economics - it is about raw power -

yes. as we also see with junkies and dealers, after a while it's not about the drugs or the money, just the power trippin'...

fuelcells are interesting. i've always said flywheels are the answer. to many things... but flywheel powered engines using something low powered to "charge" them would be pretty rad. hydrogen was always my leaning as well.. however, drastic change isn't going to happen. it's not just an issue of infrastructure, because so much of economics and foreign policy is based around oil trade... it would really change the face of international economy and relations completely.


I’m telling ya, turbines - can burn clean, provide power comparable to pistons, and can run on almost anything. No dependence on unrenewable, “foreign” oil, no big changes required for global capitalsim (not really a good thing, but a necessary thing for any new technology), new sources of income for agribusiness - really, it’s the way to go. :)

Hmmm! Getting back to Saudi. Considering that everyone in the region knows what a repressive regime exists in Saudi, you have to wonder why hundreds and thousands of expats got to work there. I guess it’s back to the old basic…Money!!! I have to go to Saudi once a year and frankly you could not persuade me to live there in a million years. However for many Pakistani, Indian, Filipino workers, Saudi is somewhere to earn an income that they cannot get in thier home countries. But in that case they are going there open eyed and have to realise that it’s an extremely difficult place to be. Like I say, I wouldn’t go, but I have the luxury of having a well paid job in Dubai and I don’t have to make that decision.

ERM hi im a new poster (old ntrack guy)
first of all hi all!!
second no religion is worth its wieght in salt that (and i know christiananity<-typo___>cant spell? aint a religion)cant controll and corner the GOD MARKET thang.
show ur faith…go head …preach behind a keyboard…sure GOD so proud…just thinkin he has enough TOKENS???..U really believe? thin u got the market cornered?..go head take a true leap of faith.!!
now u cant really do that can u…lmao too #### in ur face?..shake it off we all need that…some folks in other countries take it real serious carbombs, blah blah blah…
i know i know i know it is unxceptable to take ur life!!! for good and rite? and godlyness?
im just promotin true tolerance and prayin my friends and families mite come home soon and safely.
one more thin…US has 3% of the planets oil and we consume 25%…anyone got a calculator handy?
best justifiable prayer u need to utter? be glad u were born where u were!!! thins could look a whole lot different.
o0o0o almost 4got… wanna tell me how to upload me songs? lol main reason i came here…just got lil sidetracked…

What will you find behind the door that is one door away from Heaven?
If your heart is closed, then you will find behind that door nothing to light your way. But if your heart is open, you will find behind that door people who, like you, are searching, and you will find the right door together with them. None of us can save themselves; we are the instruments of one another’s salvation, and only by the hope that we give to others do we lift ourselves out of the darkness into light.



Hydrogen - Look at all the fire the Hindenburg made. It’s made from water - the byproduct from making hydrogen is oxygen and the “exhaust” is water - it combines back with oxygen when it burns. It’s about as pure as it gets.

Yeah, I know there’s lot’s of technical reasons it’s hard to use, but that’s what research is for.

Trouble is Phoo, there ain’t a lot of free hydrogen on earth.

You have to make it by splitting it from other molecules, and removing the H from H20 takes as much energy as you get by burning it.

In fact, due to inefficiencies in procedure, as well as those inefficiencies determined by thermodynamics, it takes a #### sight more.

There ain’t no such thing as a free lunch. :D

But, apart from chemical energy, there is also nuclear energy in hydrogen.

And they are working on it, just don’t hold your breath! :)

So, H may be fine for storing energy in a portable fashion, but we still need an energy source.

Personally, I’m all for posting a topic entitled “All liberals are faghags” and another one entitled “All conservatives are hagfags”; and just hooking Toker’s and John’s typing fingers up to electrical generators! :D



Hydrogen - Look at all the fire the Hindenburg made.

The fire from the hindburg was from the coating on the skin - watch the videos of it, the flame races along the skin… People wrongly blame hydrogen. The coating consisted of iron oxide, cellulose acetate and aluminum powder.


All I can say is that I hope Hunter keeps posting. I didn’t really understand anything he said, but it sure was interesting.

Ah my friends, Ali hit the nail on the head, there is no free lunch. To change to another fuel source will in fact have many Americans screaming at the top of their lungs! The cost, it doesn’t go as fast as my fossil fuel hemi, why do I have to stand in line to get water? etc etc. You know the same old song and such. And after listening to GWB on the press conference last night and getting even more depressed from his “I’m the sherriff and what I say goes attitude” I feel we are in for big surprises the coming years. The Great Depression was just a wake up call I fear. The next one will have gun wielding starving folks killing ya for your bisquit. BE PREPARED!

Dang, I come off sounding like the "Voice Of Doom"

Oh well, have a great facking day all. (Notice I didn’t type “####”) :D


Anyway, guys, back to the original thang, where is the outrage?