toms's religion topic here.

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Now that we're talking religion again, I have a question for you folks about Christian music. A student this semester argued that music in any place other than church is selfish and hence unGodly - thus against the very large Christian music industry - and also that only certain instruments are OK - especially not drums since they are not mentioned in the Bible. This is not the old "rock music is the music of the devil/all about sex" argument, but rather an argument that says that music should be praise of God and never about the performer, and then draws implications about that for place and type. Comment?


sounds like said student has been personally tutored by my ex-wife. which is to say, being as rudamentally prohibitionist just for the sake of it, not because of any sensical or supported argument. it's a holier-than-thou thing; the least permissive, most abolishonist, most condescending person wins the piety-eating contest. college is a crazy time.

that said, here's a few points (note that i am by no means a biblical scholar, and philisophically i see things differently than a lot of folks). the bible doesn't exclude or prohibit any specific instruments. at various points in the book of psalms (depending on the specific translation) the reader is told to crash the cymbals, make a joyful noise unto the lord, and to do so skillfully. guitars and keyboard instruments are used extensively (even in the 'high mass' settings with organ) however those aren't mentioned in the bible, because they weren't invented yet [rudamentary stringed lutes/zithers were, and are called for by the psalmists for certain psalms]. nowhere does it refer to what your orchestration should or shouldn't be. nowhere does it limit the decibel level of a worship session. nowhere does it say old hymns written between 1530-1920 performed by robed choirsmen are ok but blues-tinged folk songs sung slightly out-of-tune by long-haired fun-loving ex-hipsters are satanic. nowhere does it mention 'church' to mean a building as we think of today (it only referred to a convening of believers. new testament-era christians didn't have dedicated buildings for worship), so everyone did music/worship outside of the 'church'.

it is written that we are to love god with all our heart, soul, and strength. we are to praise him day and night. we are to put him before all things. we are inspired to have everything we do, think, or say give glory to god. this is extremely hard to do in modern, church-on-sunday life, but the language is so direct as to be hard to misinterpret. [devout muslims tend to do better at this, as they're set up to devote much more time to prayer and study then modern american christians are.]
which brings up the old argument of moral/immoral/amoral. things which glorify god are moral. things which profane god are immoral. but there's a lot of things in the neutral territory. is something which neither glorifies nor profanes god considered amoral, or immoral? we know from world history what kind of condemning/intolerant behaviors and attitudes the strict black/white interpretation lends itsself to, but what if we're not supposed be tolerant? is it god's job to exact judgement or ours?

i'm afraid, tom, that this didn't answer a single question, yet probably raised more. sorry. not :agree:

Well gosh JDET… I don’t have a thing to add to that. Not that I am disappointed! Just overjoyed to hear from someone else here with similar thoughts/beliefs. :agree:

D

All the ‘classics’ or most anyway were written as praise pieces and performed other than churches. Handel’s Messiah is THE Christmas Performance piece.
This is an old argument in Christiandom. I’m on the side of God being not nearly as anal as most of his kids.

Oh yes… thou shalt keep thy light under a bushel, or whatever it was that Jesus said. There are so many teachings on music out there in the name of Christ, and though this is a variation I hadn’t heard, I’ve heard a bunch of them. Jimmy Swaggart said anything written in a minor key is of the devil. I’ve heard from a few sources that God prefers country music, for its simplicity, I suppose. There is also a denomination (that claims not to be a denomination, but is actually the one true Church) that believes the opposite of your student. Church is the one place where there should be no music. Well, musical instruments, anyway. If your vocal chords aren’t involved in the sound, it just ain’t pleasing to God. I guess if you have no vocal chords, you’re just **** out of luck if you were hoping to praise God in any way. One reason I have trouble getting too involved in Churches is because I have yet to meet the person who has heard any more clearly from God on the subject than I have, though there are plenty who are certain they have, and feel qualified to tell me so. Basing a doctrine on one verse of scripture taken out of context is just plain dumb. I don’t mean to speak as if I’m the end all be all on Biblical understanding, but I’ve dealt with more than my share of this. Now, I just try to ignore them.

Quote:

Now that we're talking religion again, I have a question for you folks about Christian music.
A student this semester argued that music in any place other than church is selfish and hence unGodly - thus against the very large Christian music industry - and also that only certain instruments are OK - especially not drums since they are not mentioned in the Bible.
This is not the old "rock music is the music of the devil/all about sex" argument, but rather an argument that says that music should be praise of God and never about the performer, and then draws implications about that for place and type.
Comment?


As usual, I flew off the handle without really reading the question. Not that I care to retract anything I said. (Well, maybe the harshness with which I said it.) Anyway...

Christianity is about relationships, not just about praising God. Jesus taught with parables. Stories told for the purpose of opening our eyes and setting us free. Religion, on the other hand, wants to put us in a box. And most especially musicians. In the Old Testament, the job of the musician was to prophesy. (1 Chronicles 25) Saul met a band of prophets coming down from a hill. (1 Samuel 10:5,6). I don't want to be up half the night digging through the Bible for references, but I do want to make the point that a christian musician can and probably should do more than play praise music in the confines of his favorite church building. I sang an "altar call" kind of a song I wrote years back in a bar just this week. I wasn't expecting a rush of people to the stage, and it wasn't really for any religious reasons that I sang it (Didn't bring my songbook with me, and was running out of material that I could sing without it), but I certainly felt no guilt in singing it. (It did seem to quiet the crowd a bit, though.)

Well, it's starting to get late, and I'm afraid I'm in danger of rambling, if I haven't already, so I'll call it quits right here.

You are a good man Kev. :agree:

D

Ronnie Dio and the Prophets

:)



I thought that was Texan for “hook 'em horns”

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You are a good man Kev. :agree:


Depends on your definition of good, I guess. I do appreciate the vote of confidence, though.
Quote:

Now that we're talking religion again, I have a question for you folks about Christian music.
A student this semester argued that music in any place other than church is selfish and hence unGodly - thus against the very large Christian music industry - and also that only certain instruments are OK - especially not drums since they are not mentioned in the Bible.
This is not the old "rock music is the music of the devil/all about sex" argument, but rather an argument that says that music should be praise of God and never about the performer, and then draws implications about that for place and type.
Comment?



Well as a worship leader and christian song writer I have a lot to say on this subject, but I'm going to limit myself to this comment:

I can't find a mention of carrots in the bible, but I'll be having them with my lunch.

Here we go again. . .


If you can make music, just do it with a joyful noise and quit worry bout what someone else thinks, holy moly!
EDIT:(Portions of this rant were excluded due to implications of war)
. . . . . .
Shutting up now.

it should be that simple,yes,but theres always some lil puke that wants to try and force his or hers will on ya
if you say yes,they wanna say no just because they want to appear different,which in thier minds makes them an artist I guess,
reminds me of the monty python skit where the guy pays to argue
I mean why else post anything that has to do with politics or religion
post until yer blue,it isnt gonna change a thing

"Are not five carrots sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God? But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many carrots. "

OK, I’ve changed a word or two in there somewhere - test your Bible knowledge - see if you can find them.
:)

What was interesting about this argument was not the “drums are not mentioned and hence should be excluded” part - that just seems silly to me for the “carrots” reason - but the idea of the purpose of music and the implications for place and content.
Then what matters is one’s Christology - does one think Jesus was “anal” (to use Poppa’s term), or a rather earthy person who liked to celebrate?
(I’m firmly in the latter school).
Or soemthing else?
Anyway, it was a new twist on an old argument.
I like it when I come across students who are really thinking, even when I personally think they’ve drawn the wrong conclusion.
Good medicine for pessimism about future generations.

thanks for moving this topic, BTW.

Quote: (TomS @ Dec. 21 2008, 10:01 PM)

"Are not five carrots sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God? But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many carrots. "

OK, I've changed a word or two in there somewhere - test your Bible knowledge - see if you can find them.
:)

ha! So we can have sparrows but not carrots in our music.

And when the woman saw that the carrot was good for food, and it was pleasant to the eyes, and to be desired to make one wise, she took the carrot and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her, and he did eat.

Dang carrots.

Alright - who crossed the line here and brought carrots up?! That is WAY out of line. Disgusting!

Well, what are dude’s presuppositions? I mean, there are a lot of way to look at his argument depending on how it is built. I mean, Psalm 149 is pretty clear… but does he accept the OT in it’s entirety and as equal to the NT? It is a simple argument to defeat if he is truly fundamentalist in his interpretation. Would not the message being put forth through CCM be making people “fishers of men” regardless of place of the music performance or music reproduction? Doesn’t hold water in any way I can see with out some very strict rules he has concocted, and then the real argument is the validity of those rules.

Quote: (Poppa Willis @ Dec. 23 2008, 8:33 PM)

Alright - who crossed the line here and brought carrots up?! That is WAY out of line. Disgusting!

Sorry! :-(