Unwanted phasing effect on vocals

Have you tried adding the auto-volume effect, then checking the invert phase option? Only do it with ONE of the tracks, and see what this does for you. Another possible solution is to pan each track slightly away from center (but different directions) and see if that ends your issue.

she said the problem is on one MONO track.

Not sure how she is going to pan two tracks away from center on that. ???

keep shinin

jerm :cool:

LOL, the impression I got was that her system recorded it as two separate mono tracks, so I figured if she panned one to left, slightly, other to right, slightly, might correct issue

YEs we mentioned she needs to keep the other mono track :)

But the problem of fluctuation may resolve itself when both tracks are mixed down, as it did for the M-audio 2496 users tracks.
panning is a steady volume change to one side, which would correct a phase produced in stereo in theory if the out of phase is constant on both, but if it is fluctuating (swaying left to right gradually as the bits are being processed) then panning would only increase it’s notice-ability in some points of the sway.
She indicated the phase is audible on one single mono track, in order for that symptom to be audible/noticeable it would have to have a sway of some kind, and in out in out if you will louder, softer, nearer, farther, type thing…
Not real sure how the “invert phase” function of Auto volume is going to help that (since it like panning will adjust a constant shift to one side in a constant way, but anything is worth a try.

The symptoms she is describing is not necessarily what we would call “out of phase” that sometimes on a mono track is not even audible, in other words it’s not an audible FX it can only be detected by a machine of some kind.
She sounds like she is more describing a FLANGER (swaying from one side to the other in a circle/cycle) sound than an typical “out of phase” sound that would just be off to one side on a mono track, as she said it is more noticeable on longer notes…in other words as the note lengthens or is held the fluctuation from side to side is better heard (which makes sense mathematically the longer the distance the more occurrences of a sway one will exponentially encounter)

keep shinin

jerm :cool:

if i gave the impresion the phasing effect is on 1 mono track i apologise jerm cos its not.
It only appears whentheres 2 different vocal takes playing back togethter.
Our ntrack records 2 mono tracks & we delete 1 eachtime, but no matter which one we keep, when played back with another take we get the phasing.
All 4 tracks (2 left& 2 right)togethergive the phasing aswell.
2 takes mixed down played in another app. still gives the phasing.
one take L & R mixed down does not produce phasing
panning the 2 takes L & R lessens the effect but its still there.
last w eek every time i recorded guitar & played back both L & R mono tracks togethter it sounded strange.
Tonight i cant get it to do that & they sound fine!
The auto volume effect danny didnt solve it.
i dont know if any of this makes things any clearer, if so i’d be very grateful for more ideas, as long as you dont expect me to follow the science behind it :;):

Tina

Try ‘off-setting’ the tracks by a few miliseconds.

I hope I haven’t missed something here, but if you want to change the phase of a track: At the bottom of the fader trip is a rectangular icon that looks like a wave file picture
click on the icon to open the strips/tracks built in effects and EQ window - a Track Settings window opens.
At the top are a series of Icons, a square, a wrench etc. - you can hold the cursor over them to get the tool tip to identify them for you.
There are two that look like fish to me, they will change the phase of the track.
Bax

Its still there.

even after checking Bax’s pointer?

I’m starting to wonder if this isn’t something that is in the output of your soundcard. One way to test that would be take a file that “phases” on your computer, and play it on another computer or mp3 player and see if is still phasing there.

I know that sounds wierd, but the more I look into Audio, the more I realize that there is a deep well of science behind the sounds we take for granted. What you may be hearing may not be so much a phasing effect as it might be a doppler effect (similar to the way an approaching train seems to rise in pitch as it gets closer, and then drop as it moves away, even though the tone never changes to those whom are riding it…)

Honestly, Tina, I’m just guessing here, because I’ve never encountered or heard of the issue you’re having, and I’m wondering if it isn’t something either in the software or in your soundcard, itself.

Incidentally, on another thread, Bill mentioned to me that the newer versions of n-track sometimes have certain plugins enabled, by default, you might look into that and see if there’s something in your aux or master channels that is turned on but doesn’t show in the window. Another possibility is to record your tracks in single-file stereo, as I do, and see if there’s any change…

-Danny

'fraid so!

Quote: (TinaM @ Oct. 11 2010, 4:51 PM)

one take L & R mixed down does not produce phasing

And there you have it.

So you should be able to record ONE vocal take and continue to do that. (adding whatever FX you need to make it sound good.
THere is a doubling FX you could use rather than singing it twice (I know I am a big fan of that technique myself) but there are sometimes setbacks to doing it live, it sometimes does make for a weird off phase sound depending on the timing of the two takes and the computers ability to keep that constant. (which computers/soundcards rarely do since they are governed by quarts which is not perfect.(got to give credit to Bubba for that one he told me about it)

Try this, take the ONE track that you mixed down from the left and right of a single take and clone it, take it's clone and offset it, since you are starting with a track with no phase sound issue you should be able to get the "doubling effect" offet that one good stereo track by using it's duplicate, just move it around on the timeline till it sounds good.
The fact that you say there is no phasing effect when you mix down both mono tracks to a single stereo track lends me to believe the issue is soundcard related (as in the example given by the M-audio guy) and has something to do with the oddity that these Delta cards have of swaying slightly from side to side during recording which is canceled out when you render BOTH mono's to one stereo (or one mono)
However, when you introduce another vocal track you are introducing another random stereo sway that is not identical to the first, hence it becomes audibly noticeable.

from your description of the latest efforts....it was hard to tell if you mixed down BOTH takes separately to their own stereo tracks, then mixed the two takes together, or if you tried mixing all 4 mono tracks at the same time.
The reason I ask that is because it was successful with no phase sound on ONE take (two mono tracks mixed down to one stereo)....now if you repeat that process on the other take (two mono tracks mixed down to one stereo) what happens? just that other take by itself? any phase?

There is another possibility I am thinking of as I type here and that has to do with the peak levels or loudness of a recording...since you say it is more noticeable during the held out notes (they tend to be louder)
One beauty of digital recording is you always can turn the levels up later,(provided you have a clean low noise signal going in) and if a soundcard is having trouble keeping constant with louder levels you could record slightly lower and see if that helps.
Here is my thinking on it, the louder notes (the held out ones) are not peaking themselves (you don't see anything in the red on either mono track) however somehow the soundcard is treating them as one stereo track dividing the sum into two and that sum can be above peak level which means the over volume above what the processors can handle is being pushed to either side and or capped off at either side......all just speculation....but something worth considering if all else fails.
Quote:

if i gave the impresion the phasing effect is on 1 mono track i apologise jerm cos its not.

no problem we are just trying to get to the bottom of this :)

keep shinin

jerm :cool:

My internet is very slow tonight & i missed your post danny. thanks, i will check that out tomorrow.

It wouldnt be a microphone thing would it?

Tina

Could be Tina,

I have a Cad8000 that has three settings on it, one circle, and infinity symbol, and a C (whatever that is) representing three different ways the mic handles signals.

Based on the fact that you have also had weird things happening with guitar tracks my money is on it being a card/DAW issue.

keep shinin

jerm :cool:

Missed your post #31 aswell jerm. sounds interesting, will try everything out tomorrow, thanks

Tina

Quote: (jeremysdemo @ Oct. 11 2010, 6:27 PM)

I have a Cad8000 that has three settings on it, one circle, and infinity symbol, and a C (whatever that is) representing three different ways the mic handles signals.

Just an FYI, that CAD8000 is a multi-pattern large condenser mic.

The "circle" is the omni-directional setting, meaning it picks up everything in a 360 degree pattern with equal sensitivity.

The "C" is for cardiod pattern, which is a standard for the common mics today. It picks up mostly from the front and rejects a certain amount of the sound from the side and from the rear of the mic.

The infinity symbol is actually a figure 8 sideways. In this setting, the mic picks up at the front and rear equally, but rejects sound from the side. This setting can be used for the mid-side mic technique - one of the neatest mic technique I've come across (google it). I've used this on accoustic guitars and once as an ambient mic for a drum recording - and I've blown away the musician each time.

Paul

Interesting.

I have never used the mic but for vocals, but now I see it is possible to use it for other things.

keep shinin

jerm :cool:

I’m sorry, I dont think theres much point continuing this thread, i dont know what the hell i’m doing!
I want to ask whyare the recorded tracks in the song 24 bit but the mixed down tracks 16 bit, but i probaly wont understand the answer. i think our next song is just going to have phasing on the vocals!

Tina

Tina! Get a grip (slap, slap) :laugh:
Are you one of them girls who pretends, not to be able to change a spare tyre, too? :laugh:
Any one with your obvious skills can pisss it :laugh:
You can choose the bit-rate in the mixdown box.

But its set to use soundcard settings, & weve never changed it. So why would it record in 24 bit but mixdown in 16 bit, not that i know what any of that means.