What I learned today...

My first attempt at recording real drums:

mic’ing drums… in a small warehouse… it ain’t as easy as it looks.

Grrr.

I expected it to sound very “live”, and it does, but the kick and the snare just ain’t a happening to my taste: the kick sounds like a cardboard box, and the snare is way too live.

Kick had a Shure Beta 52a, about 8" from the head, off center, and slightly off-axis.

Snare had a SP-C1 underneath and pointed upwards, along with a Shure SM81 pointed midway between the hat and top of the snare.

I think maybe if I could sort out the cheesy sounding kick, I might be happy… Next time, I’m gonna try putting the mic inside the hole in the front skin of the kick just to see what happens.

Danm you Tom Hicks and your perfect drum samples! You have spoiled me! :D

The Beta 52 should give you a good sound, but it is designed to face the drum head on, and I have seen it used more like a foot - 14 inches out, and also just inside the bass (different engineers). Also, don’t forget to try a little eqing on the recorded kick - just a little cut here, a little boost there, and you might have a sound popping right out at you!

Good luck!
'til next time;
wynoT

Quote (wynot @ May 24 2005,01:48)
The Beta 52 should give you a good sound, but it is designed to face the drum head on, and I have seen it used more like a foot - 14 inches out, and also just inside the bass (different engineers). Also, don’t forget to try a little eqing on the recorded kick - just a little cut here, a little boost there, and you might have a sound popping right out at you!

Good luck!
'til next time;
wynoT

I agree, work with it! Also remember what LeirJeff was talking about a coulple weeks ago.

John, just a thought, but maybe it will help (some).

I take it you have the kick on it’s own channel ?
Try something like camelphat on that kick, and put a limiter on it.
You might want to add a noise gate as well while experimenting with the floor.

Up to where you can go and redo the recording again, sit and much around with all sorts of things on that kick. Time used to play around with stuff like that is never wasted.

HtH…
Wihan

#1 for the kick drum. place the mic inside the drum head hole ( far enough as not to pick up any moveing air that will distort the signal ) aimed up not at the head

#2 be sure your snare mic is aimed directly at the head 1.1/2 inch away on top , to the side so you dont hit it

make your your trim on each channel as low as it can go from the mixer and still have useable chanell levels ( this way the mics dont pick up other drums )

#3 use pillows and pads arund the whole drum set
as much as possible

if you can drape blankets like a cage too all around the drumms

#4 tune your drums to what ever your songs are played in
i use a key board to tune mine
base low E snare middle E
tom 1 hi end d tom 2 midle d and floor tom low end d
this way there wont be any flat resinanse( you want the drums to harmanise just like guitars etc,)

the closer the signal is to the drum the less it will pick up other drumms try to spread the mics out as far as practical on each drum

i have 9 mics.
all perfeclty mixed
super super stereo and pan ,

tony from michigan

Quote (pro drummer @ May 24 2005,04:16)
#1 for the kick drum. place the mic inside the drum head hole ( far enough as not to pick up any moveing air that will distort the signal ) aimed up not at the head

#2 be sure your snare mic is aimed directly at the head 1.1/2 inch away on top , to the side so you dont hit it

make your your trim on each channel as low as it can go from the mixer and still have useable chanell levels ( this way the mics dont pick up other drums )

#3 use pillows and pads arund the whole drum set
as much as possible

if you can drape blankets like a cage too all around the drumms

#4 tune your drums to what ever your songs are played in
i use a key board to tune mine
base low E snare middle E
tom 1 hi end d tom 2 midle d and floor tom low end d
this way there wont be any flat resinanse( you want the drums to harmanise just like guitars etc,)

the closer the signal is to the drum the less it will pick up other drumms try to spread the mics out as far as practical on each drum

i have 9 mics.
all perfeclty mixed
super super stereo and pan ,

tony from michigan

i have no gate and it sounds like i have one
i will tell you it took me 30 hours of messng to get it right what i wrote is what i came up with
\ i use the 24 bit n-track

eruro 10 mixer #64 0n the fx for everything exept the kick no fx on it

9 pg mics. the proper ones for each drum
m-audio sound card

200. model black tama art star 8 peice not includeing symbals
all new heads front and back tuned like a drum ( he he )
super sound any sound i want
80s big drum sound, 90s noisy drum sound. hip hop deep clean sound r&b rich full thick and clean sound
im very happy with all the time ive spen with the drumms latley to get a good mix i had a freind help with the board , it sux to do it alone just coach them on what to do
Quote (pro drummer @ May 24 2005,04:16)
#1 for the kick drum. place the mic inside the drum head hole ( far enough as not to pick up any moveing air that will distort the signal ) aimed up not at the head

#2 be sure your snare mic is aimed directly at the head 1.1/2 inch away on top , to the side so you dont hit it

#1 - Are you saying to place the entire mic inside of the kick, and aim it more at the shell than at the head?

#2 - For shallow (3-4"?) snare, given the choice of the following:
a-Shure SM-81
b-Shure SM-57
c-Shure SM-58
d-SP-C1 (LD condenser)
e-SP-B3 (LD condenser)
f-Drum mic made by "Crown"

...which would you choose, and how would you place it?


We left everything setup last night, and we're going back wednesday to play around some more... Everyone's advice is greatly appreciated!

You might want to try out the speaker-mic trick to help the low end. Works a bit for me, although I must admit drums are still mostly a mystery to me. Nice kit has a lot to do with it, I’m sure. :)

Hey pro drummer, you anywhere near Flint? Give me a lesson on drum recording?

im not too far from flint about 40 miles milfrod area
ys plce the mic for the kick drumm inside the hole and aim it at the shell

use the 81 mic for the kick and the 57 mic for the snare the cindensor mics for cymbals

use the other mics for the toms

pro Drummer, may I ask, why aim the kick mic at the shell?

Quote (pro drummer @ May 24 2005,11:21)
use the 81 mic for the kick and the 57 mic for the snare the cindensor mics for cymbals

use the other mics for the toms

You think that I should use an SM81 on the kick instead of the Shure Beta 52a?!? Why?

I've already got decent overheads (SP-C4 pair), and mics (Shure 98a(?) clip-on mics) for the toms... It's mainly the kick and snare sound that I wasn't happy with.

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You think that I should use an SM81 on the kick instead of the Shure Beta 52a?!? Why?

Good question…I wouldn’t.

Most of the time there is a lack of lows in the kick because it’s too closely miced (lots of snap and knock), it’s too muffled (knock sounding - boxy sounding) or it needs tuning (flat - no resonance - doesn’t cut), or all of the above. You’d be surprised at how much ring in a kick can help the sound.

For a fix it in the mix solution try using MDA SubSynth on a flat knocky sounding kick track. It can be used to add sub-harmonics. It’s not a perfect solution but it can help.

My guess is that you really don’t need the under-snare mic either, but it can help the snare by adding back a little snap and rattle. Try using it as a batter side kick mic, about 4" to 6" from the head pointing slightly off to the side of where the beater hits. It will still pick up lots of under-snare. The final track can be cloned and EQed separately to tweek on track as under-snare (roll off LOTS of lows) and kick mic (keep th lows and EQ out the snare parts).

Listen to JUST the overheads. If the drums don’t sound good in them, not accounting for overall balance, then the probably need tuning. Ironically the best kick tone I get it from the overheads and I’m in a small dead room. Unfortunately, it’s hard to use just the overheads because the balance isn’t good enough. It COULD be if I were to move he mics around, and I did do one song relatively recently with just four mics on the drums.

Kick snap can be had from the mic on the front head. If the hole is too large it’s almost as if it’s not there, and it can kill resonance. I prefer no hole at all and some ring. The only muffling on my kick right now is one strip of felt per head, and that’s almost too much. At least one of my recent drum recordings has no muffling on the kick at all and a 6" hole in the front that was not used for micing (24" drum). One other had no muffling and no hole, but the heads were a pinstripe batter and fiberskyn front (resonant) head (22" drum). Lately, I’ve got a coated ambassador on the batter and smooth white ambassador as the resonant head (same 24" drum). This drum is using the felt strips. It’s my favorite so far. They were always tunes to sound a bit live. I’d tune them so they would ring then tun them down just a little so the ring would almost stop, but not quite.

Snare tuning is a bit trickier, maybe. I think I’ve been lucky in that I have got a few snare drums that I can tune way up or down and get a sound I like out of them. One MAJOR trick is to get the snares themselves at a tension that doesn’t choke the natural resonance of the drum. That’s just a plain ol’ pain in the butt with some snare drums. I honestly don’t know if tighter or looser is better when it comes to tuning the bottom head, but whatever it is the snares need to be similarly tensioned. There is a spot that will “JUST HAPPEN” when tensioning the snares that you’ll hear the sound of the drum get fuller. With the snares off it can ring almost like a tight high pitched tom (think Bonham’s Moby Dick where he has the snares off). Tension the snares up until it chokes, then loosen then until you hear that resonance kick in, then a little lower and it will go away again. The good sound is in the middle. Once you figure this trick out you can tune the drum up or down and still be able to find that sweet spot with the snares.

How are the kick and snare currently tuned? What do they sound like to your ears? Get them sound good to you for starters then work on getting that sound onto the tracks.

Tuning toms to specific pitches is iffy in my opinion. since all toms of the same size don’t resonate to the same exact pitches, even the same models from the same manufacturers. Tune them to the pitches the tom naturally go to. For that reason I don’t like using 12" and 13" in the same set at the same time. The naturally go to pitches too close for what I like, but they can be forced. I prefer 12" - 14" - 16". That said I use two 16" floor toms. They are the same model toms from different years (1967 and 1968) but the naturally resonate at pitches farther apart than the 12" and 13" from the same year, for example of why choosing pitches just isn’t a good idea without basing it on some knowledge to the actual drums at hand. I don’t use the 13" much any more. Anyway, put the bottom head on first. Tune it so it rings like a MF. Put the top head on and up to the same pitch as the bottom head. Then fiddle with it. I got that from Bun E Carlos. Sure enough they ring just like his do these days.

Start here: http://home.earthlink.net/~prof.sound/index.html

sorry i made an error yes use the betta 52 for the kick

aiming the mic at the shell will give you the full sound of the base cavity , no breathing nois wil be oicked up

Ahhhh… I’ve found happiness (for now). :;):

-Shure 52 inside the kick, about halfway and pointed right at the beater.
-SM57 pointed at the rim(ish) of the top of the snare. (everything anyone has ever said about these mics is true, BTW!)
-SM81 pointed at the bell(ish) of the hi-hat, about 10 inches back.

Much better sound than last time! Thanks for eveyone’s help.

Here’s some pictures:



Gio was the drummer in my old band, KURFU. He’s in the Army-reserve and is getting deployed for a year to Germany in November. You can see the hi-hat and snare mics in this shot.





Massive drum-kit… The warehouse and drum-kit are owned by a friend that is a stage carpenter. He’s got autographed pictures of him with Ted Nugent, Jane’s addiction, N’Sync, Brittney Spears, etc… pretty amazing stuff! Parts of this kit were given to him by Peter Criss’s (Kiss) drum tech after Peter didn’t want them anymore. Oh yeah… ZZ Top was in the same complex last night rehearsing for their upcoming tour! I didn’t get to see them, but I did see their cars parked outside; one of them was a yellow Porsche’ Boxer. :wink:







Notice the program running on the laptop. :cool:

Whoa, you need about 72 mics for that kit!
:D

Quote (TomS @ May 26 2005,10:49)
Whoa, you need about 72 mics for that kit!
:D

Ten:

1-Kick 1
2-Kick 2
3-Snare
4-Hat
5-Tom1
6-Tom2
7-Tom3
8-Tom4
9-OH1
10-OH2

:cool:

Hmm. I count about 11 cymbals, plus top and bottom toms, so that’s 8 more, plus top and bottom HH, plus 2 OH, plus close and far stereo room mics, plus mono room mic plugged into big old compressor, plus top and bottom snare, plus two in the kick and one on the beater side, plus one for a cowbell (I don’t see it in the pciture, but there is one there, right?) and one for temple blocks or what have you…

So that’s 34.

Now double all of those mics with 57s 'cause you are going to send a separate feed to a PA system and mic it up with two sets of stereo room mics just like I read about in Mixerman, and voila: 72 mics. :D

Actually… there are two cowbells, and two hi-hats (one on each side - the right hand hi-hat is operated via a pedal on the left and has some cable thingy that goes to it. That’s one of the toys he got from Peter Criss).

Gio didn’t actually use the entire kit last night. He only played one kick, and I think he got all the way to the third tom only once or twice. :cool: