That’s the one. Upon re-reading the article, maybe I was a little harsh on Dawkins. I think what cheesed me off most was the use of stuff like “That’s a cop-out.” “I think that’s the mother and father of all cop-outs.” “Don’t give those clowns the time of day.” He does not help his case. He alienates guys like me who are open to understanding this topic from BOTH angles. Dawkins comes across sometimes as You God guys are just full of S$#T. You can’t win people over that way. It is the SAME thing the wack-job fundies pull. It’s a turn off to me.
D
But are you really open - I doubt it? By definition, you cannot be open because it is faith that motivates your belief. You either have to believe in God or not, because there’s really no proof. Perhaps if we had lived when Jesus lived & saw him heal people or bring people back from the dead, then we would have real proof, but I’ve never seen these things, nor have I witnessed or even heard of any miracles at all. So it comes back to faith because there is no proof.
Hawkins is an atheist. But he goes the next step & says that there just couldn’t be a God based on science:
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| DAWKINS: The question of whether there exists a supernatural creator, a God, is one of the most important that we have to answer. I think that it is a scientific question. My answer is no. |
As soon as you give some to science then you have to start picking off things in the Bible as being false, i.e., the creation story being the biggest of them. How do you resolve this apparent conflict?
The answer for me, because I believe in both science & religion, is that you cannot take things in the Bible literally.
Tom - I’m up to page 150 in the Early Christian studies book. It’s very well written.
| Quote (TomS @ Nov. 19 2006,10:05) |
| Given that it was negotiated by Washington and signed by John Adams, it sort of gives the lie to the claim that the US was founded as a Christian nation. |
Not really. At the time, religion was a matter left up to the states and while the federal government was not founded as an overtly Christian government, the nation could arguably still be collectively called a Christian nation. Jefferson’s Danbury letter confirms this, as it his personal lament that the federal government had no power to intrude into the states’ handling of religion or matters of the church.
Further, the Treaty of Tripoli was not a document of founding, but a an attempted negotiation to prevent the escalation of pirate attacks into a full-scale Holy War. Considering this was the 11th of 12 articles in the treaty, it looks almost like an afterthought and not the most important piece of this one treaty, which in itself had limited success in accomplishing its objectives.
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| At the time, religion was a matter left up to the states and while the federal government was not founded as an overtly Christian government, the nation could arguably still be collectively called a Christian nation. |
This is just stating the obvious. If most of the people who live in America were Christians then you can make the statement that we were a Christian nation. However, the issue is the government, which you have correctly indicated was NOT a Christian government. Jefferson clearly states that the government should not mess with religion - separation of Church & State.
ksdb - Of course you are correct about the significance of the treaty - but where would politics be without red herrings like this? 
Diogenes - that’s polite compared to some of the things folks say at academic conferences. But you are correct, “clowns” isn’t exactly polite. One of the reasons Dawkins calls young earth creationists clowns, however, is because he thinks they are responisble for harming lots of people over centuries. He has a point there. You wouldn’t like what he says about the God of the Hebrew scriptures.
Mike - glad to hear you are enjoying it. Fun stuff.
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| nor have I witnessed or even heard of any miracles at all. |
I guess that’s the difference… I HAVE seen and/or heard of “miracles” that cannot be explained away other than by super-natural intervention.
D
PS BTW, I didn’t mean to stir up a stink hole here… sorry.
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| I HAVE seen and/or heard of “miracles” that cannot be explained away other than by super-natural intervention. |
Care to share them with us? What miracles have you seen?
| Quote (Mr Soul @ Nov. 21 2006,12:57) |
|
This is just stating the obvious. If most of the people who live in America were Christians then you can make the statement that we were a Christian nation. However, the issue is the government, which you have correctly indicated was NOT a Christian government. Jefferson clearly states that the government should not mess with religion - separation of Church & State. |
Then maybe you can explain why he would preside over a treaty such as this one with the Kaskaskia Indians in 1803.
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| And whereas, the greater part of the said tribe have been baptised and received into the Catholic church to which they are much attached, the United States will give annually for seven years one hundred dollars towards the support of a priest of that religion, who will engage to perform for the said tribe the duties of his office and also to instruct as many of their children as possible in the rudiments of literature. And the United States will further give the sum of three hundred dollars to assist the said tribe in the erection of a church. |
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| Then maybe you can explain why he would preside over a treaty such as this one with the Kaskaskia Indians in 1803. |
This is possible, and likely.
http://www.sunnetworks.net/~ggarman/indian.html
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| The new Americans who settled the “new world” took control of their own destiny and prevented conquest by British, French, Spanish, or other world empires. Native American Indians were conquered by force; and religion, as well as horses and money, was used as a tool to pacify them before and after confiscating their land. … In other words, for a thousand dollar annuity and another thousand dollars for a three hundred dollar church building and a temporary agreement of one hundred dollars a year for seven years for them to pay their Catholic missionaries, the United States absorbed their land. This was a contract with the Kaskasia Indians, not with the Catholic Church; that is, the terms of the agreement (including money to pay the missionaries and construct a building) are a part of what the Indians wanted in payment for their land. |
Part of the money went to hire a preist to perform the “duties of his office” (to preach religion). Doesn’t exactly square with that separation of church and state thing that Toker mentioned.
| Quote (Mr Soul @ Nov. 21 2006,13:09) |
| I HAVE seen and/or heard of "miracles" that cannot be explained away other than by super-natural intervention. |
Care to share them with us? What miracles have you seen?
A young girl at church was diagnosed by two different oncologists to have colon cancer. They done a biopsy and reported it was definitely malignant and scheduled her for surgery where they intended to remove a section of her colon. The surgeon ordered some new imaging taken to plan his surgical procedures. The growths did not appear on the MRI or X-Rays. Further tests found no signs of cancer anywhere.
Now, did the prayers of all of her church family have anything to do with this "miracle"... or was it just a "freaky thang" with no explanation?
Another woman who had lived most of her adult life with back pain because she grew up with one leg shorter than the other and was never given corrective foot wear. Her spine and lower back was so screwed up they said nothing could be done for her. Not only was her back healed, her right leg grew over an inch in length.
Prayer or "thang"?
A friends infant son wound up in pediatric intensive care for pneumonia and was just about given up for dead. Several people from church held a prayer vigil at the hospital all night. The following morning, the doctors were amazed to find him recovering at an unheard of rate. He went home two days later.
These are a few examples I witnessed myself. Do I think God answered these prayers and healed these people? You bet.
D
So do you suppose good ol’ George Washington denied that this was a Christian nation when he made the first Thanksgiving proclamation?? To whom do we give thanks on Thanksgiving??
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| WHEREAS, It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor; WHEREAS, Both the houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me "to recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness:" Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the 26th day of November next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed; for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enable to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted’ for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and, in general, for all the great and various favors which He has been pleased to confer upon us. And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech Him to pardon our national and other transgressions; to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually; to render our National Government a blessing to all the people by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed; to protect and guide all sovereigns and nations (especially such as have show kindness to us), and to bless them with good governments, peace, and concord; to promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the increase of science among them and us; and, generally to grant unto all mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as He alone knows to be best. –George Washington - October 3, 1789 |
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| To whom do we give thanks on Thanksgiving?? |
Trick question right? The NFL? The Federal Gov’t for giving us all a day off? The Great Pumpkin? (No, that’s Halloween…)
Ah well… I know to whom I give thanks for allowing me suck air when I really don’t deserve it.
D
D - do you have any examples of people that were prayed for who didn’t have these miracles happen to them? Be honest now. It’s your faith that convinces you that these “miracles” occured because God, because you have no scientific way of proving that.
There’s no doubt that many people, including some of the Founding Fathers, were Christians, but that is not the point. The point is that founders made it so government could not interfer with the the church, and that our system of government didn’t enhorse or adhere to any particular religion. The Constitution makes no mention of God & that is not be accident. Jefferson coined the wall of separation between church & state, not I.
| Quote (Mr Soul @ Nov. 21 2006,16:07) |
| D - do you have any examples of people that were prayed for who didn't have these miracles happen to them? Be honest now. It's your faith that convinces you that these "miracles" occured because God, because you have no scientific way of proving that. There's no doubt that many people, including some of the Founding Fathers, were Christians, but that is not the point. The point is that founders made it so government could not interfer with the the church, and that our system of government didn't enhorse or adhere to any particular religion. The Constitution makes no mention of God & that is not be accident. Jefferson coined the wall of separation between church & state, not I. |
Jefferson merely wrote a letter saying, "Thanks. I'm glad you guys appreciate me, but I can't help you other than wishing that the states would build a wall between church and government. Sincerely, TJ."
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| D - do you have any examples of people that were prayed for who didn’t have these miracles happen to them? Be honest now. It’s your faith that convinces you that these “miracles” occured because God, because you have no scientific way of proving that. |
Sure there are folks who did not recieve a “miracle”. That does not lessen the importance of the others.
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| It’s your faith that convinces you that these “miracles” occured |
No it was my EYES and the reports from the Doctors. There may be some scientific explanation. I sure can’t think of what it could have been though. Specially the leg growing thing. That one kind of freaked me out to be honest.
D
Your characterization of what Jefferson said was not quite right. Jefferson’s remark basically was an attempt to summarize the 1st Amendment.
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| I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between Church and State |
James Madison also wrote of “total separation of the church from the state”. The point is that the government’s making was not Christian.
A secular government does not cite a specific religious institution for the justification of its authority. The US is most definitely a secular government.
D - well then how can you prove it was a miracle of God then? Your logic says that just because it happened and that you have no explanation for it, that it had to be a miracle of God. That’s faith my friend. There are just as many cases were no miracle happened.
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| That’s faith my friend. |
And there’s nothing wrong with that. The idea that faith and science are mutually exclusive concepts is a bit short sighted don’t you think? There are more unknowns than knowns in this wild and wacky universe. As Dawkins stated,
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| If there is a God, it’s going to be a whole lot bigger and a whole lot more incomprehensible than anything that any theologian of any religion has ever proposed. |
Maybe we have seen only a small glimpse of what God is? Sounds like a fair idea to me…
D
Dio…
True Story…
A good friend of mine was diagnosed with cancer spreading throughout his body in his late 30’s/ early 40’s. He did chemo…didn’t work. He tried (long stroy short) everything and nothing worked. He was terminal BTW. He decided to go to Sedona (New Age Central) and seek out a “healer”. The healer told him that he already knew what was killing him…what was sucking out his life force. He promptly went home and divorced his wife. His cancer went away.
So God must be a home wrecker?
KF
BTW…He remarried an “earthy” type woman and lived for another 10-12 years before the cancer came back and killed him.
| Quote (ksdb @ Nov. 21 2006,14:48) |
| Part of the money went to hire a preist to perform the "duties of his office" (to preach religion). Doesn't exactly square with that separation of church and state thing that Toker mentioned. |
Nor is it the most noble or comforting example of what happens when religion and political power get cozy, eh?