Anyone been following the Rove/Plame issue?

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Wilson has asserted that his wife was not involved in the decision to send him to Niger.

“Valerie had nothing to do with the matter,” Wilson wrote in a memoir published this year. “She definitely had not proposed that I make the trip.”


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The report turns a harsh spotlight on what Wilson has said about his role in gathering prewar intelligence, most pointedly by asserting that his wife, CIA employee Valerie Plame, recommended him.


… which is on Page 37 of the Senate Intelliegence Report. There’s a link at the Washington Post story.

Come on ksdb, you need to read the report & the MM’s article a little closer because they’re just mensing words. Wilson is saying that his wife was not part of the decision to send him. The Senate report only says Plame offered his name in a memo. She had nothing to do with the actual decision to send him. This is part the Rove was lying about.

All this is on Page 39 - 40, did you read the report?

Also, Wilson addressed everything that was slightly unfavorable in the Senate report in a followup article which I also have.

Please dig a little deeper - I know that you are capable & willing to do it.

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and these are the topics that you choose to create (a new one every day?)


Come on John, he doesn’t even really put any effort in. He just posts a link with a cut-n-paste section and says something along the lines of “Bloody right-wingers, us liberals were right the whole time”. I’m yet to see him actually post an argument of his own devising.

What really shines through is that Soul has no real opinion of his own, is contrary for the #### of it, and can see no position other than the one that’s been fed to him. Besides that he just thinks we’re all stupid.

Just to add a bit of spice to the proceedings, I thought I would post up a few of Soul’s better lines:

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Why is it so hard for all of us to agree on what the truth is?


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You always need to ask yourself the obvious.


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The right smears the left far more & you know it!



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I simply ask a question & it disturbs you guys. Don’t I have a 1st Amendment right to do that?


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You present stuff from WorldDailyNet as news. I identify what I spew.


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The right-wing wacko Lord Valve, the guy I reported to the FBI, always cites their articles. So it’s hate by association for me.

Hey Willy! Don’t be so tough on Toke!

If we didn’t have him, we’d have to invent him! :D

(Actually, I tend towards the theory that we already did. He may be an unconscious avatar of John, or a conscious manifestation of Ksdb’s oft indicated Fallopian/Electra complex. But personally, I think he’s a bot! LOL).

Anyway, let’s be honest, whoever he is, we still all luv 'im really! :D

Quote (Mr Soul @ July 13 2005,14:38)
What did you care about then? You wanted Saddam flattened for what reason? How about Iran & North Korea - do you want to flatten them too?

Mike,
Rare as it is for me to agree with you :) You've hit the nail on the head here. The question is "Where to stop"? If the US wants to set itself up as Policeman for the world, under what jurisdiction does it do that? It's already proved a certain contempt for the U.N.
Saddam was a vicious, ruthless bastard and if the intent was to rid the world of a cruel and viscious dictator who didn't care about the rights or conditions of his people, well that's fine!! But why was nothing done about Robert Mugabe? When you consider that it's hard to believe the official agenda.

Ian
Quote (Mr Soul @ July 14 2005,19:00)
Come on ksdb, you need to read the report & the MM's article a little closer because they're just mensing words. Wilson is saying that his wife was not part of the decision to send him. The Senate report only says Plame offered his name in a memo. She had nothing to do with the actual decision to send him. This is part the Rove was lying about.

All this is on Page 39 - 40, did you read the report?

Also, Wilson addressed everything that was slightly unfavorable in the Senate report in a followup article which I also have.

Please dig a little deeper - I know that you are capable & willing to do it.

"She definitely had not proposed that I make the trip."


his wife, CIA employee Valerie Plame, recommended him.

This has nothing to do with authorization. Wilson lied plame and simple.

Ian - I couldn’t agree with you more. We cannot police the entire world, which is why we have to rely on organizations like the UN to help us. The sanctions against Iraq were working, despite what the neo-cons would like you to believe. We are on the right path before the US invaded Iraq, i.e., the inspectors were back in & were making progress. I will say that Clinton should have insisted that the inspectors go back into Iraq but he was pre-occupied with the impeachment and he was following Al Quaeda more than Saddam. Saddam was not threat to the US. This war will cause more problems than it solves - history will bear me out on this one.

ksdb - Wilson did NOT lie!!! If you read what he actually said, he did not lie. Novak et al. tried to say that he said something different than what he did. Wilson’s wife was not part of the decision to send him to Niger - read the doc’s! She may have brought up his name (even that is questionable) but that is not what he said. Use common sense man - why would he lie about this, it makes no sense for him to do so?

The right also tried to spin another point: they tried to say that Wilson lied about Cheney asking him to go to Niger. Cheney did not ask Wilson to personally go to Niger & Wilson never claimed that he did. However, Cheney did ask the CIA to follow up on the yellow-cake info. which eventually led to Wilson going to Niger.

The Media Matters article tells the complete truth about the Wilson/Plame affair. If you cannot see that or follow it, then you are as biased/close-minded as you claim the liberal media is.

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Come on John, he doesn’t even really put any effort in.
Sometimes I don’t but I’ve followed this one from the beginning. I’ve read the Senate report, both Wilson’s article & Novak’s. On this issue, I’ve spent some effort. If you’re interested, I’ve pointed you to the information. If you’re not, then why waste your time attacking me? You’re no better than you claim I am. In fact, all the people they complain about me posting here as a bunch of immature whinners IMO. The internet is a tough place - if you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
Quote (Mr Soul @ July 14 2005,12:00)
F*ck off John!

Now, now... go take your meds and you'll feel better. I'm starting to think that you like to post your crap here because you can't afford therapy.
Quote (Sceptic Tank @ July 15 2005,01:47)
He may be an unconscious avatar of John, or a conscious manifestation of

It's becoming like a Jedi/Sith thing - he's blindly commited to his party, and I'm a thorn. He's already told me to "get lost" (in a manner of speaking).

:D
Quote (Mr Soul @ July 15 2005,11:20)
The internet is a tough place - if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

You're such a hypocrite.

You told me to "fvck off" and go to another forum because you don't like what I say, and in the next breath you tell someone to "get out of the kitchen" when they don't like what *you* say.

I swear to God, you are nothing better than a 4 year old little brat playing in the sandbox and wanting all the other little kids to play by his rules.

Grow. Up. Dude.

Oh, and if you can't take it, leave the kitchen.

Shhh - did anybody hear something? Mr Soul is not speaking to John anymore but Toker can.

What’s the matter John - CD’s sales down?

President appears to qualify standard for firing in CIA-leak case -
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WASHINGTON - President Bush said Monday that if anyone on his staff committed a crime in the CIA-leak case, that person will “no longer work in my administration.” His statement represented a shift from a previous comment, when he said that he would fire anyone shown to have leaked information that exposed the identify of a CIA officer.

If Clinton or the Democrat’s had done this there would have been a 2nd impeachment. Bush is a hypocrit.

It doesn’t matter where Rove got the information about Plame, he should NOT have leaked it to the press, which he did do.

This is a great example of the press being dishonest. The statement is not a departure from former statements.

This quote was posted on the first page of the thread:

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And if there is a leak out of my administration, I want to know who it is. And if the person has violated law, the person will be taken care of.

The press = dishonest, Bush = honest - RIGHT!!!

In this instance the press is dishonest by trying to characterize Bush’s statements into something that was never said.

BS. These are accurate statements. And you are parsing words if you say that they are not.

Quote (Mr Soul @ July 18 2005,13:24)
BS. These are accurate statements. And you are parsing words if you say that they are not.

I showed you proof. Show me otherwise.

Quote (MidnightToker @ July 15 2005,14:05)
Shhh - did anybody hear something? Mr Soul is not speaking to John anymore but Toker can.

What’s the matter John - CD’s sales down?

You are now officially a complete a$$hole.

It’s one thing to disagree and argue about politics, religion, opinions, etc… on this side of the board. But first and foremost, we are a community of musicians. You seem to have forgotten that. To take a swipe at someone’s music on this side of the board is completely out of line and unacceptable.

That is one thing that you would never have heard me do. In fact, I’ve made an effort to seperate your personality from either of these two forums; over here I usually refer to you as “Toker” (or some variation), on the music forum I’ve usually referred to you by your real name, and try to mkeep it professional, and even friendly. Obviously you lack the ability to give me the same amount of respect. Therefore - go fvck yourself.


Thanks for revealing your true colors, dickhead.

:angry:

You didn’t show me any proof?

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Bush said in June 2004 that he would fire anyone in his administration shown to have leaked information that exposed the identity of Wilson’s wife, Valerie Plame. On Monday, however, he added the qualifier that it would have to be shown that a crime was committed.

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WASHINGTON - Karl Rove had a secret.

In public, he was masterminding President Bush’s reelection and brushing off suggestions he had played any part in an unfolding drama: the unmasking of CIA operative Valerie Plame. In private, the senior White House adviser was meeting, on five occasions, with federal prosecutors to tell what he knew about the matter.

The story he would tell prosecutors did not seem to square with the White House’s denial that it had played any role in one of the most famous leaks since Watergate. Rove told prosecutors he had discussed Plame in passing with at least two reporters, including the columnist who eventually revealed her name and role in a secret mission that would raise questions about Bush’s case for war against Iraq. At the same time, other White House officials were whispering about Plame, too.

Tracing the leak
It is now clear: There has been an element of pretense to the White House strategy of dealing with the Plame case since the earliest days of the saga. Revelations emerging slowly at first, and in a rapid cascade over the past several days, have made plain that many important pieces of the puzzle were not so mysterious to Rove and others inside the Bush administration. White House officials were aware of Plame and her husband’s potentially damaging charge that Bush was “twisting” intelligence about Iraq’s nuclear ambitions well before the episode evolved into Washington’s latest scandal.

But as the story hurtles toward a conclusion sometime this year, there are several elements that remain uncertain. The most important — did anyone commit a crime?

This article, based on interviews with lawyers and officials involved in the case, is an effort to step back from the rapidly unfolding events of recent weeks and clarify what is known about the Plame affair and what key factors are still obscure. Those people declined to be identified by name because special prosecutor Patrick J. Fitzgerald has asked that closed-door proceedings not be discussed.

The yellowcake incident
It all started in the early days of 2002 with Joseph C. Wilson IV, a flamboyant ex-diplomat who had left government for a more lucrative life of business consulting. Wilson was a veteran of the diplomatic wars of Iraq and Africa, so it seemed logical to some in the CIA, including his wife, Plame, to send him on a secret mission to Niger. Wilson’s task was to determine if Iraqis had tried to purchase yellowcake uranium from Africa to build nuclear weapons.

To a Bush administration intent on selling the American public on war based on the threat posed by Iraq’s weapons program, the yellowcake was no small deal. The White House would soon cite it as evidence that Saddam Hussein was pursuing nuclear weapons.

Wilson spent a week in Niger chatting with locals about the allegation, coming to the conclusion that the yellowcake charges were probably unfounded. He reported his findings to the agency — but they never made their way to the White House.


• More politics news


The story might have ended there, but Bush, Vice President Cheney and other officials decided to make the yellowcake charges a central piece of the administration’s evidence in arguing Hussein had designs on a dangerous program of weapons of mass destruction, including nuclear bombs. On the march to war, Bush officials rebuffed concerns from some at the CIA and included in his January 2003 State of the Union the now-famous 16 words: “The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.” Wilson was floored, then furious.

Wilson set out to discredit the charge, working largely through back channels at first to debunk it. He called friends inside the government and the media, and told the New York Times’s Nicholas D. Kristof of his findings in Niger. Kristof aired them publicly for the first time in his May 6, 2003, column but did not name Wilson. This caught the attention of officials inside Cheney’s office, as well as others involved in war planning, according to people who had talked with them.

Defending the war
The White House, hailing the lightning-quick toppling of Hussein, suddenly found itself on the defensive at home over its WMD claims. It was not just Wilson, but Democrats, reporters and a few former officials who were publicly wondering if Bush had led the nation to war based on flimsy, if not outright false, intelligence.

Administration officials set out to rebuff their critics, Wilson in particular. By the time The Washington Post published Wilson’s allegation questioning the intelligence (but not citing his name) on the front page on June, 12, 2003 — one month before the Plame affair was public — Wilson was on the administration’s radar screen.

The more Wilson pushed, the more the White House was determined to push back against a man they regarded as an irresponsible provocateur.

Up until this point, Wilson had worked mostly behind the scenes, but on July 6, he penned an op-ed in the New York Times, writing, “Some of the intelligence related to Iraq’s nuclear weapons programs was twisted to exaggerate the Iraqi threat.” A story detailing the allegation also appeared that day inside The Post as Wilson appeared on NBC’s "Meet the Press."

On the offensive
The White House response was swift. There is a simple rule in politics: Kill a story before it kills you. The Bush team spread word to reporters that Wilson was a Democrat, a supporter of Bush’s political opponents who was sent on an inconclusive mission that people in power knew nothing of.

Then, they went a step further.

Two days after Wilson went public, columnist Robert D. Novak told Rove that he was hearing that Wilson had been sent on the mission at the suggestion of his wife, who was working in the CIA, a lawyer familiar with the conversation said. “I heard that, too,” Rove replied, according to the lawyer. Rove said Novak had told him Plame’s name and that that was the first time he had heard it, the lawyer said.

That could be seen as being at odds with Rove’s comments to CNN on Aug. 31, 2004, when he said, "I’ll repeat what I said to ABC News when this whole thing broke some number of months ago. I didn’t know her name. I didn’t leak her name."

Hunting for the source
On July 7, Bush took off for a trip to Africa. Secretary of State Colin L. Powell, who was on the trip, carried with him a memo containing information about Plame, as well as other intelligence on the yellowcake claim. It is on this trip that, prosecutors believe, some White House aides might have learned about Plame.

The origin of the Plame information is central to the case. Prosecutors are trying to determine if White House officials shared information about Plame based on the State Department memo, or from conversation with reporters, as Rove has testified, or somewhere else. If it turns out Plame’s identity was learned from the memo, it would undermine the GOP defense that Rove and other administration officials were simply discussing information they had learned from reporters.

Rove’s attorney, Robert Luskin, said he can say “categorically” that Rove did not obtain any information about Plame from any confidential source, such as a classified document. A lawyer familiar with Rove’s testimony hedged a bit on who precisely told Rove about Plame, saying it may have come secondhand from another aide, as well as from Novak.

Full court press
In Washington, Rove and others were discrediting Wilson’s story even as then-CIA director George J. Tenet said that the yellowcake allegation should never have been included in Bush’s speech. “This did not rise to the level of certainty which should be required for presidential speeches, and CIA should have ensured that it was removed,” Tenet said in a July 11 statement.

In a conversation that same day, Rove told Time magazine’s Matthew Cooper that Wilson’s wife was in the CIA and authorized the mission to Niger; but he did not use her name. Afterwards, Rove e-mailed then-deputy national security adviser Stephen J. Hadley to tell him he had waved Cooper off Wilson’s claim.

A day later, Cheney’s top aide, I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby, told Cooper he had heard the same thing about Plame, and a senior administration official flagged the role of Wilson’s wife, almost in passing, to The Washington Post’s Walter Pincus.

On July 14, Novak’s column ran, naming Plame for the first time and saying two senior administration officials had provided him the information. The White House anti-Wilson campaign continued, but legally it did not matter, because once Plame’s name was in the public domain, Rove and others were free to gossip about her.

White House offers public denials
Rove told MSNBC’s Chris Matthews that Plame was fair game, even as White House spokesman Scott McClellan was denying any White House role in the leak. “I’m telling you flatly that that is not the way this White House operates,” the spokesman told reporters July 22. McClellan was usually careful to stress involvement in any illegal leak, though his public statements clearly left an impression of a White House aloof to the affair.

CIA officials believed that the revealing of Plame’s identity was a potential crime and contacted the Justice Department to investigate. CIA officials maintain that Plame never ordered up the trip.

It is not clear when the White House realized Plame might have been a covert operative, but Sen. Charles E. Schumer (D-N.Y.) called for an FBI probe 10 days after the Novak column was published. It would be a crime to reveal her name only if a government official knew that Plame had covert status and knew that the government was actively concealing her identity.

The uproar over the leak was ephemeral, as the story seemed to wilt in the summer heat. But in late September, a senior White House official was quoted as telling The Post at least six reporters had been told of Plame before Novak’s column, “purely and simply out of revenge.” Two days later, Bush was told that the Justice Department was investigating whether someone had unlawfully leaked the identity of an undercover agent.

Leak becomes a federal case
Chicago U.S. Attorney Fitzgerald was named special counsel three months later, setting in motion an aggressive investigation that would soon force about a dozen administration officials to testify, compel the Supreme Court to consider the age-old question of how much protection a reporter can provide a source, and land one reporter, the New York Times’s Judith Miller, behind bars for refusing to testify. Her role remains a mystery, because she never wrote a story.

Fitzgerald subpoenaed White House phone records and e-mails, guest lists for parties and information about the State Department memo reportedly brought aboard Air Force One. What started out as a simple investigation into a leak evolved slowly at first, swiftly in the early days of 2004, into a wider probe of other potential illegalities. Bush and Cheney were asked to talk to investigators informally, while a parade of officials from Powell to Rove to McClellan appeared before the grand jury.

Lawyers who have sat in on the prosecutors’ interviews said Fitzgerald cast a wide net, adopting a broad view of the case. Some witnesses were asked only about the initial disclosure, others about possible misstatements during the investigative phase. Some were brought in several times. Rove, for example, was grilled by FBI agents twice in formal meetings and asked to respond to questions in informal settings, and appeared three times before the grand jury — all between October 2003 and October 2004, said a person familiar with his testimony.

Reporters obtained releases from sources such as Libby to discuss confidential conversations, while others refused. Cooper and Miller, in a case that reached and was rejected by the Supreme Court, refused to reveal sources and were held in contempt. Cooper was released by Rove to talk; Miller is sitting in an Alexandria jail.

The showdown over sources has already impeded at least two major media outlets. The Cleveland Plain Dealer, fearing criminal prosecution, has decided against publishing two investigative pieces not related to the Plame controversy because they were based on anonymous leaks. And Time reporters have said that at least two sources have told them they would no longer provide information because the company turned over documents in the Plame case.

As for the Bush administration, the investigation has exposed how an administration that publicly deplores leaking has engaged aggressively in the practice to advance its goals.

Yet much of the case remains a mystery. Did the White House leak the identity of a CIA operative? Is it a crime? Did Bush have any knowledge of it? Will Fitzgerald have spent this much time pressuring officials and reporters and not deliver an indictment? Those questions may be answered soon, as the grand jury’s term is set to expire in October.