why don’t you two stubborn boneheads get a room already… 
…
isaac
Thanks for calling ksdb a bonehead 
| Quote (idover @ July 19 2005,12:55) |
| why don't you two stubborn boneheads get a room already... ... isaac |
Because others like yourself keep posting. Also, it's not a good idea to encourage Soul Man to call names; we're trying to break that nasty habit.
mike, i was calling both of you stubborn boneheads!.. … although i must admit that i admire how neither of you give up… i get bored with things too quickly, so i’m usually little fun in an argument… in fact, politics hasn’t really been striking my fancy lately… maybe it’s these new pills the doctor prescribed!.. …
isaac
Isaac, maybe it is the pills. I used to take Allegra-D and politics give me a red rash on me arse.
Redarse McYaz
In my family “bonehead” is a term of affection. Really. 
| Quote (TomS @ July 20 2005,09:07) |
| In my family "bonehead" is a term of affection. Really.
|
in mine, it is "knucklehead"...
..isaac
Debunking RNC Talking Points on Rove/Plame.
It’s amazing the lies that are here. The worst LIE is “Wilson Falsely Claimed Cheney Sent Him To Niger” which is completely false.
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| "Once Again, Democrats Are Engaging In Blatant Political Attacks" Wait a minute here! Are we talking about the same Democrats? The Democrats I’ve seen haven’t been able to muster up a mild criticism, much less a political attack. And to remind you, President Bush was the one who said he’d fire whoever was responsible for the leak. I guess he was politically attacking the Republicans too? "Rove Discouraged A Reporter From Writing A False Story" However, the fact that Wilson’s wife was a CIA agent and played a small role in organizing his trip was way more information than was needed to refute the story. And again, at least four reporters were told the same thing, it was more than just “A Reporter”. "Assessments Wilson Made In His Report Were Wrong" Weaseling. The report may not have been 100% correct, but it was mostly correct. On the other hand, the administration’s contention that Iraq tried to buy uranium from Niger was indeed 100% wrong. "Joe Wilson Endorsed John Kerry" Oh my god, if he supported a Democrat, he must automatically be wrong about EVERYTHING. And yet months after Kerry lost, the story is still in play. I guess the Kerry connection wasn’t the main reason behind the claims. "Wilson Falsely Claimed Cheney Sent Him To Niger" This claim is the one that is mostly laughably false. Their best ‘evidence’ of Wilson making this claim is this quote: "What they did, what the office of the vice president did, and, in fact, I believe now from Mr. Libby’s statement, it was probably the vice president himself…" Which turns out to be completely taken out of context. In fact, Wilson said JUST BEFORE this quote: “Well, look, it’s absolutely true that neither the vice president nor Dr. Rice nor even George Tenet knew that I was traveling to Niger.” See, right there, he says plain as day that Cheney, Rice and Tenet knew nothing about his trip. And then JUST AFTER that quote he goes on to say: "They asked essentially that we follow up on this report – that the agency follow up on the report. So it was a question that went to the CIA briefer from the Office of the Vice President. The CIA, at the operational level, made a determination that the best way to answer this serious question was to send somebody out there who knew something about both the uranium business and those Niger officials that were in office at the time these reported documents were executed." So IN CONTEXT, his quote that “I believe … it was probably the vice president himself…” refers to Cheney requesting the CIA look into the allegation. He clearly says that Cheney’s office requested the CIA look into the matter, the request filtered down to a departmental level where they decided to send Wilson to ask some questions. It is CRYSTAL CLEAR that Wilson is CLEARLY SAYING that there were at least three degrees of separation between Cheney and the decision to send him to Africa. He explicitly says that Cheney, Rice and Tenet had no idea he was sent. And yet through some kind of twisted logic, the Republicans think this proves he said that Cheney sent him. Incredible. Go read the CNN transcript for yourself to see exactly what was said. "Wilson Denied His Wife Suggested He Travel to Niger" In fact, Wilson has denied that she was part of the decision making process. Let’s look at exactly what he said in the interview the RNC cites as evidence of this: WILSON: "But the fact of the matter is, the decision – the invitation, the offer, or the request that I go out to Niger was made at a meeting, after this issue was discussed in a group of involving analysts from the CIA and other agencies. My wife was not at that meeting, and she specifically absented herself from that meeting, so as to avoid even the appearance of a conflict of interest." BLITZER: "And I spoke to David Ensor, our national security correspondent, who says that a high-ranking CIA official does say the Senate Intelligence Committee report got it wrong on that specific point." WILSON: "Well, on July 22nd of last year, a Newsday journalist asked the same thing. And he was told by a senior intelligence official that Plame was a Directorate of Operations undercover officer who worked alongside, but said she did not recommend her husband to undertake the Niger assignment." Go read the CNN transcript. "Wilson’s Report On Niger Had Thin Evidence" In fact, what Wilson’s report had was very little evidence at all. It’s not surprising that this is the case, since there hasn’t been any solid evidence of any Iraq-Niger uranium deal other than a forged document. He had been sent to talk to his contacts to find out if there was anything to the story of a uranium deal. His contacts were unable to support the story. Maybe his report contained little evidence because the uranium deal was a complete fiction? |
If there are talking points, these are about as far from reality as you can get. The only people that say anything about Wilson making a false claim that Cheney sent him to Niger is Democrats. It’s a strawman argument; something weak that can be propped and then knocked over, except it has nothing to do with what the other side says.
You posted a great example of Wilson trapping himself in one of his own lies:
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| WILSON: "But the fact of the matter is, the decision – the invitation, the offer, or the request that I go out to Niger was made at a meeting, after this issue was discussed in a group of involving analysts from the CIA and other agencies. My wife was not at that meeting, and she specifically absented herself from that meeting, so as to avoid even the appearance of a conflict of interest." |
Excuse me, Mr. Wilson, but why were you at this meeting?? Did you just randomly show up or were you invited because YOUR WIFE RECOMMENDED YOU?? It doesn’t matter whether she left the meeting; she hooked you up.
These are the talking points.
No - you’re wrong about Wilson & he addressed your false claim in the article he wrote to the Senate. Wilson says that his wife was not part of the decision to send him which is true.
The evidence that his wife even recommended him is very weak - here’s the part from the Senate report:
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| Some CPD officials could not recall how the office decided to contact the former ambassador, however, interviews and documents provided to the Committee indicate that his wife, a CPD employee, suggested his name for the trip. The CPD reports officer told Committee staff that the former ambassador’s wife “offered up his name” and a memorandum to the Deputy Chief of the CPD on February 12,2002, from the former ambassador’s wife says, “my husband has good relations with both the PM [prime minister] and the former Minister of Mines (not to mention lots of French contacts), both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activitv.” This was just one day before CPD sent a cable -requesting concurreke with CPD’s idea to send the former ambassador to Niger and requesting any additional information from the foreign government service on their uranium reports. The former ambassador’s wife told Committee staff that when CPD decided it would like to send the former ambassador to Niger, she approached her husband on behalf of the CIA and told him “there’s this crazy report” on a purported deal for Niger to sell uranium to Iraq. |
So this is the evidence that you are using to claim Wilson is a liar? Do you see any bias against Plame/Wilson in this paragraph, because I do?
Even if his wife recommended him, why would he lie about it? There’s nothing wrong with his wife recommending him, so it doesn’t make sense that he would lie about it. Wilson continues to deny that his wife was involved in the Niger decision.
Have you seen this?
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| Sources said the CIA is angry about the circulation of a still-classified document to conservative news outlets suggesting Plame had a role in arranging her husband’s trip to Africa for the CIA. The document, written by a State Department official who works for its Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR), describes a meeting at the CIA where the Niger trip by Wilson was discussed, said a senior administration official who has seen it. CIA officials have challenged the accuracy of the INR document, the official said, because the agency officer identified as talking about Plame’s alleged role in arranging Wilson’s trip could not have attended the meeting. |
One question ksdb - do you think her name was leaked as retaliation against Wilson’s op-ed piece criticizing the Bush admin?
| Quote (Mr Soul @ July 20 2005,16:18) |
| These are the talking points. |
Talking points about fake talking points, yada, yada, yada …
| Quote (Mr Soul @ July 20 2005,16:18) |
| No - you’re wrong about Wilson & he addressed your false claim in the article he wrote to the Senate. Wilson says that his wife was not part of the decision to send him which is true. |
Which is parsing. She recommended him for the trip. It’s in the Senate Intelligence Report, based upon more than one source evidently (interviews and documents - page 39).
| Quote (Mr Soul @ July 20 2005,16:18) | ||
| The evidence that his wife even recommended him is very weak - read the Senate report. Have you seen this? <!–QuoteBegin>
CIA officials have challenged the accuracy of the INR document, the official said, because the agency officer identified as talking about Plame’s alleged role in arranging Wilson’s trip could not have attended the meeting. |
I’ve heard about a State Department memo that explained how Plame recommend her hubby for the trip, but I’ve not seen anything in the MSM about the CIA being angry about the memo. Is your quote from a DNC blogger or talking point site?? Again, the SIR quoted more than one source of this information.
| Quote (Mr Soul @ July 20 2005,16:18) |
| Even if his wife recommended him, why would he lie about it ksdb? There’s nothing wrong with his wife recommending him. You’ve got to prove a motive. |
It’s called nepotism and a conflict-of-interest. He was trying to hide it. Now he’s trying to capitalize on portraying her and himself as victims.
| Quote (Mr Soul @ July 20 2005,16:18) |
| One question ksdb - do you think her name was leaked as retaliation against Wilson’s op-ed piece criticizing the Bush admin? |
No. She was inadvertently identified while the WH tried to prevent the media from trying to make it appear that Cheney or the White House were trying to manufacture intelligence via the CIA.
Wilson waited nearly six months after the President’s State of the Union speech to write an op-ed piece challenging the president’s inclusion of the famous 16 words (based on British intelligence which was later upheld by the Butler Report). The Senate Intelligence Report says Wilson’s trip and findings played a very small role in confirming or denying the Niger connection to Iraq. In fact, it initially strengthened the claim that Iraq tried to buy uranium (page 46).
If Wilson was so sure this part of the President’s speech was wrong, why did he wait six months (and three months after the war started) to speak up about it?? And why did he go to David Corn and suggest that his wife was a covert agent when such had not been publicly suggested?? Is this the action of a guy who’s worried about his wife’s safety??
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| She recommended him for the trip. It’s in the Senate Intelligence Report, based upon more than one source evidently (interviews and documents - page 39). |
The paragraph I quoted is ALL the evidence from the Senate report. Wilson denies that she recommended him in a follow-up article - have you read that article?
There’s no evidence to support that Plame was involved in the actual decision to send him. Do you believe that?
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| Is your quote from a DNC blogger or talking point site?? Again, the SIR quoted more than one source of this information. |
Media matters.
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| It’s called nepotism and a conflict-of-interest. He was trying to hide it. Now he’s trying to capitalize on portraying her and himself as victims. |
BS. There’s no reason for him to hide that fact. Do you think it was not serious to blow her CIA cover?
Wilson was not a victim when he wrote “What I Didn’t Find in Niger”. Was he just capitalizing then?
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| No. She was inadvertently identified while the WH tried to prevent the media from trying to make it appear that Cheney or the White House were trying to manufacture intelligence via the CIA. |
Then why not come forward & just say so? There would be no investigation - case closed. That’s pretty simplistic, don’t you think?
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| Wilson waited nearly six months after the President’s State of the Union speech to write an op-ed piece challenging the president’s inclusion of the famous 16 words (based on British intelligence which was later upheld by the Butler Report). |
You haven’t followed this very closely because Wilson has explained this. I’m not going to do your homework because you won’t believe me anyways, but look it up if you’re interested.
My explanation would be that Wilson was concerned that we might falsely go to war. Don’t take my word for it - this is what Wilson said himself:
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| I was convinced before the war that the threat of weapons of mass destruction in the hands of Saddam Hussein required a vigorous and sustained international response to disarm him. Iraq possessed and had used chemical weapons; it had an active biological weapons program and quite possibly a nuclear research program — all of which were in violation of United Nations resolutions. Having encountered Mr. Hussein and his thugs in the run-up to the Persian Gulf war of 1991, I was only too aware of the dangers he posed. But were these dangers the same ones the administration told us about? We have to find out. America’s foreign policy depends on the sanctity of its information. For this reason, questioning the selective use of intelligence to justify the war in Iraq is neither idle sniping nor “revisionist history,” as Mr. Bush has suggested. The act of war is the last option of a democracy, taken when there is a grave threat to our national security. More than 200 American soldiers have lost their lives in Iraq already. We have a duty to ensure that their sacrifice came for the right reasons. |
Are we arguing the 16 words again because I can prove that Tenet said that they shouldn’t have been there. The White House has also admitted the words shouldn’t have been there - are you denying that?
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| The Senate Intelligence Report says Wilson’s trip and findings played a very small role in confirming or denying the Niger connection to Iraq. In fact, it initially strengthened the claim that Iraq tried to buy uranium (page 46). |
Partially correct. There were several camps on the Niger issue & both claimed Wilson’s report justified their position. This issue isn’t about Wilson though, although the CIA graded his report as “good”. Do you deny that?
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| And why did he go to David Corn and suggest that his wife was a covert agent when such had not been publicly suggested?? Is this the action of a guy who’s worried about his wife’s safety?? |
Now you’ve lost me? The Corn article came after the Novak article so Plame’s id was already known?
Another question - do you think it’s possible that a President & his administration might retaliate against an individual writing damaging information about his administration? Please answer this - a simple yes or no will do.
Novak’s article identified Plame as CIA employee, but not that she had covert status.
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| Wilson never worked for the CIA, but his wife, Valerie Plame, is an Agency operative on weapons of mass destruction. Two senior administration officials told me Wilson’s wife suggested sending him to Niger to investigate the Italian report [concerning alleged Iraqi efforts to acquire uranium in Niger]. The CIA says its counter-proliferation officials selected Wilson and asked his wife to contact him. “I will not answer any question about my wife,” Wilson told me. |
I wonder who the CIA source was that confirmed Plame’s employment??
David Corn’s article was the first to actually say that Plame was covert. My comments are in green.
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| Wilson caused problems for the White House, and his wife was outed as an undercover CIA officer. She was?? Who said she was undercover?? Wilson says, “I will not answer questions about my wife. This is not about me and less so about my wife. It has always been about the facts underpinning the President’s statement in the state of the union speech.” So he will neither confirm nor deny that his wife–who is the mother of three-year-old twins–works for the CIA. But let’s assume she does. That would seem to mean that the Bush administration has screwed one of its own top-secret operatives Top secret according to whom?? in order to punish Wilson or to send a message to others who might challenge it. There was nothing derisive about Wilson in Novak’s column, so until Corn says that Plame is top-secret, how was Wilson being punished?? The sources for Novak’s assertion about Wilson’s wife appear to be “two senior administration officials.” One source (Rove) made an extremely vague reference to Wilson’s wife and no suggestion that she was undercover or that she needed to be “outed.” If so, a pair of top Bush officials told a reporter the name of a CIA operative who apparently has worked under what’s known as “nonofficial cover” No name mentioned by Rove. But who told Corn that Plame was NOC?? and who has had the dicey and difficult mission of tracking parties trying to buy or sell weapons of mass destruction or WMD material. If Now he says “IF.” Wilson’s wife is such a person–and the CIA is unlikely to have many employees like her–her career has been destroyed by the Bush administration. (Assuming she did not tell friends and family about her real job, these Bush officials have also damaged her personal life.) Without acknowledging whether she is a deep-cover CIA employee, Wilson says, “Naming her this way would have compromised every operation, every relationship, every network with which she had been associated in her entire career. This is the stuff of Kim Philby and Aldrich Ames.” If she is not a CIA employee and Novak is reporting accurately, then the White House has wrongly branded a woman known to friends as an energy analyst for a private firm as a CIA officer. That would not likely do her much good. |
So Wilson wouldn’t talk to Novak about his wife, but he starts bringing up a big hypothetical question about her CIA status with Corn. Now why would he do that?? How does that protect her cover??
Also, there’s a suggestion that Wilson’s trip to Niger was classified. Wasn’t he breaking the law by talking about it in his op-ed piece, "What I didn’t find in Africa?"
Finally, the Novak story does not make a big point out of Valerie Plame. It is SIX paragraphs into his story. Now how is this a smear at Wilson?? It only counters Wilson’s brief suggestion that Cheney was responsible for the trip to Niger.
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| The vice president’s office asked a serious question. I was asked to help formulate the answer. That sounds Rather direct, now that I read it in black and white. |
The only people who immediately made this a big deal at the time were the Democrats and Wilson when he cooperated with David Corn’s story. The question now is who is Judith Miller’s source. Is there someone out there who made sure to point out that Valerie Plame might have had covert status in an effort to blackball the Bush Administration??
This is what Novak said:
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| his wife, Valerie Plame, is an Agency operative on weapons of mass destruction. |
All CIA agents are either undercover or not (by definition). Just by mentioning this, Novak identified her. The fact is that she was uncover, so someone told Novak that she worked for the CIA.
You’ve completely lost me with your last two posts?!?! . David Corn’s article came out after Novak’s. Corn doesn’t say how he knew Plame was uncover but he probably assumed that. He quotes Wilson.
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| Wilson says, "I will not answer questions about my wife. This is not about me and less so about my wife. |
You’re obviously going to believe what you want despite the facts. Joseph Wilson is a distinquished public servant & you’ve completely bought into smearing him, because you don’t agree with what he says. That’s fine, but at least admit it.
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| The only people who immediately made this a big deal at the time were the Democrats and Wilson when he cooperated with David Corn’s story. |
Dahhh - who do think is going to make an issue out it?
You insinuate stufff that I haven’t heard any other right-winger insinuate. You should work for Karl Rove.
Please answer my question about whether it’s possible for an adminstration to retialate against someone disagreeing with it?
For all of Mr. Wilson’s lies, he sure was correct in the end. Funny how such self-serving liar would have been so right? Funny how Novak released info. on Plame several days after Wilson’s article. Just coincidence I guess.
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| So what we have said is it should not have risen to the level of a presidential speech. People cannot conclude that the information was necessarily false… So this was something that the CIA undertook as part of their regular review of events, where they sent him. But they sent him on their own volition, and the Vice President’s office did not request it. Now, we’ve long acknowledged – and this is old news, we’ve said this repeatedly – that the information on yellow cake did, indeed, turn out to be incorrect. |
- Ari Fleischer, Press Gaggle by Ari Fleischer
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| And George Tenet rightly says that the agency cleared the speech, it should not have been cleared with that sentence in… So yes, it is unfortunate that this one sentence, this 16 words, remained in the State of the Union… . The director of the Central Intelligence Agency has said – the director of central intelligence has said that it should not have gotten in because it didn’t have the level of confidence that we require for presidential speeches. I could not agree more. |
- Condoleezza Rice, July 13, 2003
By the way, Corn debunked this right-wing crap about him leaking whether Plame was covert - The Rove Scandal: Now I’m Smeared as the Leaker.
You’ve got to see there is a consistent pattern of right-wing disinformation & lies. Once you realize that your guys are the liars, then perhaps you’ll see things clearer. It’s going to be tough because it’s going to shake the foundations of your belief system. Sorry about that.
Corn admits that he made extremely big assumptions and printed them. It takes a pretty big logic jump to get from “CIA operative” to “Top-secret agent.”
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| You’ve got to see there is a consistent pattern of right-wing disinformation & lies. Once you realize that your guys are the liars, then perhaps you’ll see things clearer. It’s going to be tough because it’s going to shake the foundations of your belief system. Sorry about that. |
What are you going to do when you realise that it’s ALL of them, left right, middle.
Here’s another oddity about this case: if the CIA is worried about protecting the identities of their agents, does it make sense to hire an agent’s husband for an extremely high profile mission?? Especially when that guy is fairly well-known?? And would such a person who has been hired for such a mission be authorized to talk about it in the press??
Willy - I’m not that much of a cynic. What you may not understand is that there has been an organized, right-wing propaganda machine here in the US for 20+ years. They’ve gained control of talk radio, many major new organizations, the government, etc. They smear liberals & make people feel like they are victims & they LIE all the time. It’s gotten particularly bad recently because now they lie all the time, about little & big items.
The same thing was going on during Nixon’s era but it was pretty much covert then. Now it’s everyday, 27/7. And it’s worked because people in the US do NOT follow news stories very carefully, they do not dig, and they’ve been duped. Look at how easy it was for Bush to take this country to war.
Corn posed his statement as a question (if you read his piece):
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| Did senior Bush officials blow the cover of a US intelligence officer working covertly in a field of vital importance to national security–and break the law–in order to strike at a Bush administration critic and intimidate others? |
ksdb - you still didn’t answer my question: is it possible?
The mission that Wilson went on was not top secret & did not require cover.
Soul man, Corn suggested a smear campaign, but until he insinuated that Plame was outed for being top-secret (whether through question or statement - he does both in his story - evidently you didn’t read or are purposely ignoring my earlier post) there was nothing about Novak’s column that smears Wilson. At one point Novak ascribes this quote about Wilson:
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| My partner Rowland Evans reported from the Iraqi capital in our column that Wilson showed “the stuff of heroism.” |
Mentioning that Wilson’s wife worked at the CIA did nothing more than clarify the reason why Wilson was identified for the trip to Niger. WHERE’S THE SMEAR??? And if it wasn’t a secret mission, why is anyone upset about it???