"but the contents are not."
Of course, you'd never believe that if it was proven without a doubt, now would you?
| Quote (MidnightToker @ Sep. 15 2004,15:03) |
| I discredit people when there's colloborating evidence to support discrediting them. |
I promised myself I would not involve myself in this part of the forum anymore, but this is going to keep me up tonight.... the word is CORROBORATE.
I have a pretty good idea of what Bush was doing, but he has never made it the centerpiece of his campaign or his life. Kerry is the one who chose to make this election all about what happened thirty freaking years ago.
Here’s a spoiler for you. The story has already been floated:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin…581.DTL
The REAL story is about CBS and Dan Rather being so adamant about getting a certain story out that they shopped around until they found a document “expert” who told them they had something legit. It is indicative… just like the AP wire was indicative. It demonstrates in no uncertain terms that we HAVE no source of trustworthy information in this nation, or probably in the world.
We are ALL being manipulated. A few of us have understood that for years. Most don’t want to be bothered doing their own homework, though, so they select intellectual surrogates like Dan Rather to do their thinking for them. Mike.
I have to make some money here. Rats. This is too much fun.
But I’ve been collobbered, Bubba! Look… right here. Ouch!
| Quote (pete @ Sep. 15 2004,16:00) |
| But I've been collobbered, Bubba! Look... right here. Ouch! |
-it's all butter for the spreading.
but it makes for interesting reading.
Perhaps the goal is not a s important as the journey......
| Quote (pete @ Sep. 15 2004,15:23) |
| Now CBS is saying they will be making their statement at 5:00. Unsubstantiated sources say CBS will admit the documents were false... "but the contents are not." Let's pop a cold one and light a fire, shall we? |
Did CBS say anything? I have not seen anythnig. Rather is sticking by the story as of this morning.
I have a pretty good idea of what Bush was doing, but he has never made it the centerpiece of his campaign or his life. Kerry is the one who chose to make this election all about what happened thirty freaking years ago.
Pete - I agree with you here.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin....581.DTL
Why do you keep citing articles that talk about Knox? She corroborates (did I get this right :-) that Bush was delinquent.
The REAL story is about CBS and Dan Rather being so adamant about getting a certain story out that they shopped around until they found a document "expert" who told them they had something legit. It is indicative... just like the AP wire was indicative. It demonstrates in no uncertain terms that we HAVE no source of trustworthy information in this nation, or probably in the world.
How you going to prove such as a bold statement? You hold to this belief by faith IMO.
We are ALL being manipulated. A few of us have understood that for years. Most don't want to be bothered doing their own homework, though, so they select intellectual surrogates like Dan Rather to do their thinking for them. Mike..
You say we're manipulated by the press, I say we're manipulated by the government.
No - I don't agree. With need a strong, independent & free press to search for the "truth". No deep throat - no Watergate.
CBS doesn't seem to have backed down on anything yet?
I have to make some money here. Rats. This is too much fun.
Remember if you end this forum & you end your fun
Pete - I agree with you here.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin....581.DTL
Why do you keep citing articles that talk about Knox? She corroborates (did I get this right :-) that Bush was delinquent.
The REAL story is about CBS and Dan Rather being so adamant about getting a certain story out that they shopped around until they found a document "expert" who told them they had something legit. It is indicative... just like the AP wire was indicative. It demonstrates in no uncertain terms that we HAVE no source of trustworthy information in this nation, or probably in the world.
How you going to prove such as a bold statement? You hold to this belief by faith IMO.
We are ALL being manipulated. A few of us have understood that for years. Most don't want to be bothered doing their own homework, though, so they select intellectual surrogates like Dan Rather to do their thinking for them. Mike..
You say we're manipulated by the press, I say we're manipulated by the government.
No - I don't agree. With need a strong, independent & free press to search for the "truth". No deep throat - no Watergate.
CBS doesn't seem to have backed down on anything yet?
I have to make some money here. Rats. This is too much fun.
Remember if you end this forum & you end your fun
No… and they’re not going to. This is all that was said:
Statement by the President of CBS News, Andrew Heyward:
"We established to our satisfaction that the memos were accurate or we
would not have put them on television. There was a great deal of
coroborating [sic] evidence from people in a position to know. Having
said that, given all the questions about them, we believe we should
redouble our efforts to answer those questions, so that’s what we are
doing."
That about says it all. They’ve admitted nothing, and this crow I killed a bit ago is going in the can instead of into the pan.
Faith… Mike - remember how very offended you were when I posted that little piece here a few months back - how personally you took my implication that there might be people who treated their politics as a religion? You’ve sure embraced that idea since, and now you weild it like all of the other bits and pieces you’ve garnered to bludgeon those around you with. We all believe a lot of things. Some of us do our homework before forming those beliefs… other’s take the word of the likes of Dan Rather and CBS.
Meanwhile, you continue to assume that I’m something I’m not. All I’m doing is taking note of the more glaring of the inconsistancies, and staying VERY alert to the continuing decline of human liberty in this nation and this world as this sort of thing is yawned at by most, and argued and apologized for… by the likes of YOU.
Faith... Mike - remember how very offended you were when I posted that little piece here a few months back - how personally you took my implication that there might be people who treated their politics as a religion? You've sure embraced that idea since, and now you weild it like all of the other bits and pieces you've garnered to bludgeon those around you with. We all believe a lot of things. Some of us do our homework before forming those beliefs... other's take the word of the likes of Dan Rather and CBS.
Yes - I remember well but the difference is that I do not believe out of faith like you say I do. I don't believe, from common sense, that Dan Rather or CBS are "bad guys" who manipulate us the way you claim. I don't believe that MemoGate condemns them, regardless of how it turns out. Maybe they're biased but not like you make them out to be.
Meanwhile, you continue to assume that I'm something I'm not. All I'm doing is taking note of the more glaring of the inconsistancies, and staying VERY alert to the continuing decline of human liberty in this nation and this world as this sort of thing is yawned at by most, and argued and apologized for... by the likes of YOU.
It's hard for me to assume anything about you Pete. You tell me in private that Bush isn't fit to lead but yet on your website you say & I quote:
...but what I am seeing with MY own eyes has me convinced that we have a President in office who is doing the best he knows how to do - and doing it #### well...
It's hard for me to take you seriously with descrepancies like this. To me, you seem to easily buy into every right-wing conspiracy thing that comes along.
I agree in your assessment of the "decline of human liberty" but we disagree on who's doing it. But regardless of your or my opinion, history will tell us someday.
Yes - I remember well but the difference is that I do not believe out of faith like you say I do. I don't believe, from common sense, that Dan Rather or CBS are "bad guys" who manipulate us the way you claim. I don't believe that MemoGate condemns them, regardless of how it turns out. Maybe they're biased but not like you make them out to be.
Meanwhile, you continue to assume that I'm something I'm not. All I'm doing is taking note of the more glaring of the inconsistancies, and staying VERY alert to the continuing decline of human liberty in this nation and this world as this sort of thing is yawned at by most, and argued and apologized for... by the likes of YOU.
It's hard for me to assume anything about you Pete. You tell me in private that Bush isn't fit to lead but yet on your website you say & I quote:
...but what I am seeing with MY own eyes has me convinced that we have a President in office who is doing the best he knows how to do - and doing it #### well...
It's hard for me to take you seriously with descrepancies like this. To me, you seem to easily buy into every right-wing conspiracy thing that comes along.
I agree in your assessment of the "decline of human liberty" but we disagree on who's doing it. But regardless of your or my opinion, history will tell us someday.
| Quote (MidnightToker @ Sep. 15 2004,18:22) |
| But regardless of your or my opinion, history will tell us someday. |
And as history is written and re-written which truth will we hold to be self evident?
The way I figure it, the Bush team planted this, tied it to Kerry somehow (we’ll see how soon), then exploded it, so we wouldn’t notice that OPEC is increasing production by a million B a day just as promised. Oh, and there is that war thing that is going so badly.
Did you all know we have fewer people working on bin Laden intelligence now than we did before 9/11? Hmm…
| Quote (TomS @ Sep. 15 2004,20:14) |
| The way I figure it, the Bush team planted this, tied it to Kerry somehow (we'll see how soon), then exploded it, so we wouldn't notice that OPEC is increasing production by a million B a day just as promised. Oh, and there is that war thing that is going so badly. Did you all know we have fewer people working on bin Laden intelligence now than we did before 9/11? Hmm.... |
I think this will be the response when the Kinko's stuff floats to the surface. Rats don't give up just because the're cornered.
Stay tuned.
Jeff
| Quote (TomS @ Sep. 15 2004,20:14) |
| Oh, and there is that war thing that is going so badly. |
As long as we are on the conspiracy bandwagon, perhaps the war is going badly because the terrorists are going all out to de-rail the president who declared war on them?
Just a thought.
Jeff
It's hard for me to assume anything about you Pete. You tell me in private that Bush isn't fit to lead but yet on your website you say & I quote:
Quote
...but what I am seeing with MY own eyes has me convinced that we have a President in office who is doing the best he knows how to do - and doing it #### well...
It's hard for me to take you seriously with descrepancies like this. To me, you seem to easily buy into every right-wing conspiracy thing that comes along.
I agree in your assessment of the "decline of human liberty" but we disagree on who's doing it. But regardless of your or my opinion, history will tell us someday.
I've said it in public AND private, Mike. The Bush family's ties to the Saudis alone make any of them unfit for office, simply because there is no way to make a decision without the appearance of impropriety. You pick half of that and make it sound like I whisper one thing in your ear and then say something else in public.
I've made it clear more than once why I will be voting for Bush. I've also made it clear that I haven't voted for him before, and if there was anything like a viable choice available, why I'd be voting for somebody else. One thing I know about George W. Bush - yes, I BELIEVE - is that the man is a genuine Christian in the same way I understand it. He has unabashedly stated in the public forum that he knows Jesus as Lord and Savior, and that he had no other way to explain why Jesus is the "great thinker" from history who has most influenced him. I believe he is doing the best he knows how to do - yes... and in regards to the foreign policy that has so horrified the rest of the world, I approve.
Do I like his domestic policy? Not one bit. Do I think he is fit to be president? No. Do I think that there are lightyears of difference between a man who has already proven himself to me during one of the most difficult times this nation has ever faced and Jane Fonda's buddy who returned to this nation from Vietnam to destroy the reputations of his fellow soldiers and then attempt to run a campaign on his being a War Hero?
Need I really answer that? Kerry is a more miserable offering by the Democratic Party than Dukakis was. It is a pitiful joke.
Any other private conversations you want to discuss here in the open forum, Jack? I've saved them all... I'll start publishing them if you like. There is a compelling reason those were private conversations, and I thought you understood it. I CAN be taught, though, and I will remember this.
Quote
...but what I am seeing with MY own eyes has me convinced that we have a President in office who is doing the best he knows how to do - and doing it #### well...
It's hard for me to take you seriously with descrepancies like this. To me, you seem to easily buy into every right-wing conspiracy thing that comes along.
I agree in your assessment of the "decline of human liberty" but we disagree on who's doing it. But regardless of your or my opinion, history will tell us someday.
I've said it in public AND private, Mike. The Bush family's ties to the Saudis alone make any of them unfit for office, simply because there is no way to make a decision without the appearance of impropriety. You pick half of that and make it sound like I whisper one thing in your ear and then say something else in public.
I've made it clear more than once why I will be voting for Bush. I've also made it clear that I haven't voted for him before, and if there was anything like a viable choice available, why I'd be voting for somebody else. One thing I know about George W. Bush - yes, I BELIEVE - is that the man is a genuine Christian in the same way I understand it. He has unabashedly stated in the public forum that he knows Jesus as Lord and Savior, and that he had no other way to explain why Jesus is the "great thinker" from history who has most influenced him. I believe he is doing the best he knows how to do - yes... and in regards to the foreign policy that has so horrified the rest of the world, I approve.
Do I like his domestic policy? Not one bit. Do I think he is fit to be president? No. Do I think that there are lightyears of difference between a man who has already proven himself to me during one of the most difficult times this nation has ever faced and Jane Fonda's buddy who returned to this nation from Vietnam to destroy the reputations of his fellow soldiers and then attempt to run a campaign on his being a War Hero?
Need I really answer that? Kerry is a more miserable offering by the Democratic Party than Dukakis was. It is a pitiful joke.
Any other private conversations you want to discuss here in the open forum, Jack? I've saved them all... I'll start publishing them if you like. There is a compelling reason those were private conversations, and I thought you understood it. I CAN be taught, though, and I will remember this.
By the way - if you are going to cut a few sentences out of one of my pieces and slap me with it, you best make the rest of it available - yes… even the paragraph that I restated above about why I don’t think Bush is fit to be President. Here is where it AND your quote came from:
http://theveryfew.net/modules…&sid=32
And the other paragraph you elected to not carry over but accuse me of being afraid to say in public - again… in the SAME ESSAY:
<!–QuoteBegin>
| Quote |
| Is it just possible that Bush did the right thing? I wasn’t until recently a supporter of this president. My reasons for not supporting him are very simple, and have nothing to do with politics; his family has oil interests and what I feel are inappropriate ties to powerful families in the Middle East. Would Gore have been any better? Not likely. Gore also has family ties to oil interests. The problem with these interests is so very evident right now; our President cannot avoid the appearance of impropriety and conflict of interest. This is exactly what I saw coming during the election. |
This, again, is a fine example from a fine Democrat on how to “discredit” somebody. Good job, Mike. Keep on showing us how the Democrats want to conduct themselves and what they consider acceptable. So I’ve been Discredited. You may now safely ignore anything I have ever said or ever will say, because Mike the Democrat doesn’t understand me.
You know what? At this point, I think I would be horrified if you DID understand me.
| Quote (Jeff @ Sep. 15 2004,22:15) | ||
I think this will be the response when the Kinko's stuff floats to the surface. Rats don't give up just because the're cornered. Stay tuned. Jeff |
Actually, although I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek, I am a bit surprised that no one has floated this scenario.
As to why the war is going badly, well, there was no exit strategy. That sort of problem, of course, has plagued nearly every winner of every war in history. You'd figure they'd realize that one of these days.
Pete, Jesus said to turn the other cheek. Jesus said that we should give away all of our possessions, that we should help the poor and oppressed. Bush may have a deep faith commitment, but it is not to any Jesus I recognize. Do you recognize Jesus in Bush’s actions? Perhaps Bush is trying to hurry along the final days.
Seriously, there is very little compassion in his domestic politics. The extreme right wing of the Republican party seeks two things: more money and more power for themselves. Being against gay marriage, allowing wealth in schools to shift away from impoverishhed, mostly urban schools, cutting social programs, shifting the cost of social programs to those who can least afford it, and adopting generally conservative social values is not the same as acting in a Christian way. Caring about and for those who are less fortunate, “seeing the poor in Christ, and Christ in the poor,” that is Christian. It is an idea at the core of most of the world’s religions, actually, although Jesus demonstrated it particularly well. I’m not trying to start another religious debate, but I have to challenge the idea that merely professing to be a Christian, even having a sincere faith commitment, means that the person acts as a Christian. Bush doesn’t act like one, in spite of the attempt on the part of the extreme Republican right to claim that they have lock on what it means to be a Christian. They don’t, and for the most part they have hijacked the religion for political and unChristian moral purposes.
Tom - POLITICS is about more money and more power. Do you really see a difference? I’ve looked, and looked hard. I don’t. I HAVE… but I don’t now. This is a game being played to continue controlling the most wealthy and powerful entity in the world.
I’ll gladly comment more on this a bit later. If this thread runs too deep, the Midnight Toker won’t bother reading back to my responses to his sucker-punch. I’m still a little too pissed about that to turn my cheek… again.
Pete - I’m not trying to discredit you but your views seem inconsistent to me which is why I said what I said. You attack me all the time, categorize me & other Democrats/liberals. I merely present what you say back to you & you get upset - sorry about that. I apologize for not linking the entire article but I qouted your concluding statement (which was the conclusion of what you were saying - is that correct?).
Read my type-writer: the content of the CBS report appears to be correct - see For The Record: Bush Documents.
I quote:
<!–QuoteBegin>
| Quote |
| Knox says she didn’t type these memos, but she says she did type ones that contained the same information. “I know that I didn’t type them," says Knox. "However, the information in those is correct.” Knox says the information in the four memos that CBS obtained is very familiar, but she doesn’t believe the memos are authentic. She does, however, remember Killian being upset over Mr. Bush’s failure to take a physical. “Did or did not Lt. Bush take a physical as ordered by Col. Killian,” Rather asks Knox. “The last time, no he didn’t,” says Knox. “It was a big no-no to not follow orders. And I can’t remember anyone refusing to. Now for instance, with the physical, every officer knew that before his birthday he was supposed to have that flying physical. Once in a while they might be late, but there would be a good excuse for it and let the commander know and try to set up a date for a make-up. If they did not take that physical, they were off flying status until they did.” Did Knox ever hear Killian talk about this, or did he write memos about Bush not taking the physical? “He was upset about it. That was one of the reasons why he wrote a memo directing him to go take the physical,” says Knox. “I’m going to say this, but it seems to me that Bush felt that he was above reproach.” … Knox says that Killian started what she calls a “cover-your-back” file – a personal file where he stored the memos about the problems with Mr. Bush’s performance, his failure to take a physical, and the pressure Killian felt from upstairs. She addressed one memo, and a reference to retired Gen. Staudt pushing for a positive officer training report on Lt. Bush. |
I think what probably happened was that someone knew of those “cover-your-back” files & typed up made-up documents & sent them to CBS. That person was probably Bill Burkett, a retired National Guard officer from Texas.
What CBS should have done was just to present the actual information & corroborating sources, not the doc’s themselves. It appears as though CBS rushed this story.
Rather has said he’ll admit to anything that CBS finds in regards to the doc’s themselves.
Let me ask one question - if I typed up Martin Lurther’s German Bible in some word processor & gave it to you saying it was an original, would that make the content any else real?
Let me ask YOU… if I were to type up memoes and apply signatures to them that restated what the Swift Boat Vets are saying, would that be ok?
Keep this in context. They have an 86 year old witness now who says yeah - the docs are forged… but what they say is what she remembers. That’s one lady who landed a 60 minutes segment - the third one that has been dedicated to this “non partisian” issue. So the forging is just FINE with you, huh?
Good for you. It isn’t fine with me.
And what I am doing to you is exactly what you have been doing here since the beginning… categorizing you and making bigoted, prejudicial statements about Democrats. You are the one who has chosen to wear that big D on your forehead and speak on behalf of Democrats. I speak on behalf of me. The decisions I make are my own, and what I believe and say are not representative of any group, no matter how hard you want to work to make it seem otherwise.
I was thinking this morning about this place. What makes it good? What makes it bad? For me, of course - not for you. It is both for me. It is bad because I get angry here, and there isn’t much else in my life were I experience anger. But there is very very good too… I could go hang out at Free Republic or a zillion other places - but this is a spot where the rubber meets the road. There IS no preaching to the choir here. If I’m going to say something, not only am I going to have to back it up, but I’m going to have to endure personal attacks because of it.
This place and this group of people tests me. I like that. That’s why I’m still part of the problem here.