How do they work compared to version 4?
I have noted several topics referring to the way evolution nodes behave in the recent builds of n-Track. It seems that there have been changes, then fixes to those changes.
I may have been the cause of some of the changes in how volume nodes behave. I have been long frustrated with the way volume nodes worked in versions previous to 5. In fact, the very touchy way volume nodes behave has kept me from implementing n-Track as the editor of choice for the broadcasting stations at which I head up the technology division.
Here is the text of the support email I sent Flavio back in September. He responded on November 13, 2006 that most (but not all?) of the suggestions were implemented.
I would be interested in which of these suggestions were implemented and how well they work:
=========September 2006 support email to Flavio==========
I don’t use version 5, so I don’t know if this works better in version 5.
The volume envelope drawing in n-track is very touchy and erratic. For example:
1. If you click on the waveform above or below the volume envelope line it will create a node and sometimes the volume line will jump to the new node and sometimes it won’t until you move one of the other nodes first.
2. Sometimes when you are at the bottom of a track waveform and attempt to add a node, it adds a node to the track below.
3. Sometimes you click on a waveform intending to select a part while in volume drawing mode and you add nodes that you didn’t intend to.
4. If you add a node, then add a second node immediately after it and intend to drag the node to infinity to cut volume at that point, but you drag the node a bit earlier in the timeline than the first node, the volume drawing line will swap places. It would be good if nodes couldn’t be dragged past other nodes on the timeline.
MY SUGGESTIONS
A. I suggest that nodes not be added unless the cursor is actually on the volume line and you right click and select “Add Node”. The nodes should show up more clearly than they do now. Once you add a node, then you can move it.
B. I also would add the ability to right-click on a node and select preset levels such as +6dB, 0dB, -Infinity.
C. A node should not be able to be dragged past other nodes on the waveform.
I suggest you look at the way envelope drawing behaves in Sony Vegas Movie Studio. I find that program to work much better in that regard.
I don’t use the other evolution drawing features in n-track, but I suspect they behave the same and need the same improvements.
Thanks for the great program. I hope you include my suggestions in future builds.
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| 1. If you click on the waveform above or below the volume envelope line it will create a node and sometimes the volume line will jump to the new node and sometimes it won’t until you move one of the other nodes first. |
My perception is that this is much better now, (though I don’t know if anything was actually changed. Maybe I’ve just gotten used to how touchy it is.) But I think the snap-to size of the nodes has been changed somehow.
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| 2. Sometimes when you are at the bottom of a track waveform and attempt to add a node, it adds a node to the track below. |
This appears to have been fixed.
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| 3. Sometimes you click on a waveform intending to select a part while in volume drawing mode and you add nodes that you didn’t intend to. |
This also appears to have been fixed.
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| 4. If you add a node, then add a second node immediately after it and intend to drag the node to infinity to cut volume at that point, but you drag the node a bit earlier in the timeline than the first node, the volume drawing line will swap places. It would be good if nodes couldn’t be dragged past other nodes on the timeline. |
This has been fixed. Nodes cannot be dragged past each other.
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| B. I also would add the ability to right-click on a node and select preset levels such as +6dB, 0dB, -Infinity. |
I suggested this on this forum last week. It would be very useful imo.
Hi vivona and Cap:
I completed a re-Mastering project using build 2191 just today. I started the project back in build 2099… I’m not one for using volume nodes to adjust levels very often. However, the topic appeared last week here and I began using volume nodes more often than I have used them, in the past… The last series of editing I did today included build 2191 volume node adjustments… with no issues of any kind.
I believe it’s not how/what editor you use… It’s what-and-how you use the editor you get used to using.
I’d like to get more compliant in using the “Scrub Feature” in n-Track now… But I find I’m almost unable to get a “Handle” on how to use that feature… If I could find out how to use it, I know it could jump to the top of the list of features I would use when I edit with n-Track…
The only other editor I use is called PolderbitS… But that editor works only with 16-bit files.
Bill…
The last few builds have been specifically addressed toward the envelope feature. 2193 is designed to fix the problem some of us were having with the node behavior. It was only loaded today, so I can’t say that it is perfect, however, the other problems all seem to be fixed and working well in version 5.
Hi Cap and Others:
I have a quote from your earlier post, on this node issue…
Quote…: This has been fixed. Nodes cannot be dragged past each other.
Quote
B. I also would add the ability to right-click on a node and select preset levels such as +6dB, 0dB, -Infinity.
I suggested this on this forum last week. It would be very useful imo.
*******
I know or I think vivona might be interested in this suggestion, as well… Maybe we might suggest this idea to Flavio…
What do you think??
Suggestion…
Maybe, have some way to “Open a Dialogue Box” to insert the level by typing the number into the dialogue box and then press “Enter”… and the node moves to the level… without using the mouse to drag the node to the given level… Or, at least to have that option… Only use the mouse to drag the node to the “Time Position” on the time-line… If that idea were implemented, then the node could always be shifted slightly… by re-opening the dialogue box, again… For example, in the editing process you might want to come back to that node to shift it “One-way-or-the-Other” a db-or-so… or till it suits the edit… 
?? Well…
Bill…
[EDIT]
vivona:
+6db,0db,and-infinity might not be enough resolution, for my tastes…
Bill,
While I do think this would be useful, I think it’s sort of entering the realm of “how many individual, unique workstyles should be catered to.” n-Track already has a set-to-—inf-from-whatever-the-current-evolution-value-is command called Fade. For the weekly podcasts I’m currently involved with it would be useful to highlight a selection and reduce the volume of that selection by 3dB (ducking for voiceovers). It would be useful, but unnecessary. It would literally save me only a few seconds per week, provided it could read my mind, perform the fades perfectly and not require any tweaking. With the node-mouse action fixed (which was acknowledged as a bug), I have no trouble doing this quickly manually.
ETA
By the way, the Fade In and Fade Out commands are very useful and worth playing with for a few minutes if you haven’t. Combined with the volume evolutions (which is what they control anyway) they make a very versatile toolset.
Thanks for all your replies to date. The issues I raised with the volume evolutions would also apply to pan, aux and effect parameter evolutions. I only use volume evolutions, so my comments have centered around that application.
The more one uses evolutions, the more that feature becomes of importance to that user. Since I use volume evolutions all the time, it is an important feature for me. I do a lot of vocal recording over a music track. I might do several takes and make a composite of the best phrases of all the takes. By using volume evolutions I can alternately mute or enable different sections of each take. I also can adjust the mix to follow the progress of the overall volume of the music tracks. But with the way n-Track volume evolutions work in 4.x, drawing volume evolutions has always been very touchy.
While in the evolution drawing mode, if I had clicked on the waveform to select a section (but not on the evolution line) it would add nodes. I always had to switch back to selection mode, make my selection, then switch back to draw mode. I could quickly do this by holding down Alt (note that n-Track, in the status bar, incorrectly tells you to hold down Ctrl to do this) but if I forgot to do that, I ended up with changes to the evolution line that I didn’t intend.
An even more troublesome feature was that if I merely clicked on the waveform in draw mode, but didn’t drag the mouse, it would not create a visible node or change the evolution line. You can demonstrate this by switching to volume draw mode and clicking above and below the drawing line without dragging the cursor as you click. It will not set a node or change the draw line. (If the draw line does move, it is because you moved the mouse a tiny bit as you clicked.) Sometimes the first click will actually move the draw line, but subsequent clicks will not. Go ahead and click several places above and below the line. Now click and drag anyplace on the waveform and nodes will appear where you clicked previously and the draw line will jump to those nodes.
By making it necessary to actually click on the evolution line to create a node or drag a node, it makes working in evolution drawing mode much easier. That is the way other audio programs I have worked with behave. I assume that 5.x now works that way?
In 4.x, if you add a node, then add a second node immediately after it and intend to drag the second node to infinity to cut volume at that point, but you accidentally drag the node a bit earlier in the timeline than the first node, the volume drawing line will swap places. It would be good if nodes couldn’t be dragged past other nodes on the timeline. I understand that this had been fixed in 5.x. Is it still fixed in the latest build?
If I create a node and drag it to -Inf, then go back in draw mode and put my mouse cursor over that node to move it, most of the time it will create a second node and move that one instead of moving the original mode. I am always having to select unintended nodes and delete them. Has that been fixed in 5.x?
I haven’t upgraded to 5.x yet because I am in the middle of a project and prefer to not change versions during a project. Also, my experience with n-Track is that it takes quite a few builds before a new version settles down and becomes stable. One only needs to look at the version changes history to see that.
Vivona, you really need to try version 5 build 2193. I think Flavio has fixed the complaints that you have in the new build (2193).
I think if you will “bite-the-bullet” and go ahead and upgrade your problems with the envelore will be greatly reduced. So, far I have had no difficulties of the type you describe in version 5 - actaully, it is proving trouble free for me. If you are reluctant to spring for the upgrade, download the demo version and give it a try, but I’m betting the newer build is what you need.
Bax
| Quote (bax3 @ Dec. 20 2006,11:20) |
| Vivona, you really need to try version 5 build 2193. I think Flavio has fixed the complaints that you have in the new build (2193). |
I went ahead and bought the upgrade to 5 (2193). Yes, the volume evolution feature works much better now. All the touchy and buggy characteristics of evolution drawing I mentioned have been fixed.
I also like the ability to move, select, play and draw on a part without having to change views. This is a major improvement. I also noticed a real improvement in how parts can be dragged over other parts. Gone are the jumpy unexplained part dragging behaviors of Version 4. I can get to like this new version!
Just downloaded the latest build to try out the new envelope editing. Works much better than before! This should speed up drawing volume envelopes quite a bit.