i checked the archives and i couldn’t find anything…
how do you quantize midi information that is entered real time and you want to make it more accurate…
does it have something to do with the grid? i’ve tried everything, and still nothing quantizes…
AGGGGA!
yazzofever
I’m at work at the moment so don’t have N in front of me but from memory you pretty much just go into the piano roll, select the notes you want to quantize, click the quantize button and then choose the settings (how strictly you want it to quantize) and then click quantise or go or whatever the button is.
It will quantise to whatever your grid settings are (eg. triplets or beat/16ths etc.)
Rich
Quantize works as Richlum says. I believe you can also set n to automatically quantize your input as you play it. Be aware that the quantize function is only for MIDI, not audio. There is no quantize function for audio. Maybe in the next version, Flavio?
Don
I don’t really think you could effectively quantize audio…
How would your quantizer know exactly where a note begins and ends in order to know where to cut the note?
Different sounds and notes have different amplitudes and attacks etc. so just detecting peaks in amplitude won’t necessarily give all notes
A wav of a drum track MAYBE… but not something like a piano or guitar track…
Also in an audio track “notes” or sounds will usually overlap each other so you can’t cut one note without taking some of another as well…
In a midi file, every note is a discreet event.
Rich
| Quote (RichLum @ June 28 2005,23:48) |
| I don’t really think you could effectively quantize audio… How would your quantizer know exactly where a note begins and ends in order to know where to cut the note? Different sounds and notes have different amplitudes and attacks etc. so just detecting peaks in amplitude won’t necessarily give all notes A wav of a drum track MAYBE… but not something like a piano or guitar track… Also in an audio track “notes” or sounds will usually overlap each other so you can’t cut one note without taking some of another as well… In a midi file, every note is a discreet event. Rich |
That’s more or less true Rich, but not completely true.
Cubase has had “match point” and “hit point” editing for years.
And it worked pretty well way back in Cubase VST, and now in SX3 it’s really very good indeed.
But as you say, it’s best with percussive tracks, or at least, instruments that have strong initial transients with fast rise times. And “overlap” of notes is not an audible problem.
But even Fruity Loops has a slicer so you can divide a loop into individual hits, and fit them to any desired tempo.
| Quote (RichLum @ June 28 2005,20:48) |
| I don’t really think you could effectively quantize audio… How would your quantizer know exactly where a note begins and ends in order to know where to cut the note? |
Quantizing also often involves extending the duration of notes, so I’d be pretty impressed if someone could pull that off seamlessly for general music audio.
Tony
I gave this a bit of thougth awhile back.
Thinking of a waveform as a big long springy string of sorts…
What I imagine is a program that lets you click on a section with the mouse, and with a pre-determined area of effect (strongest in the center, and diminishing outward ), slide that section left or right. Something akin to a smudge tool in a paint program. Then the extents to the left and the right just expand or compress accordingly.
It probably wouldn’t work over long intervals without degrading, but It might be enough to tighten up a beat that is slightly off the mark.
| Quote (Scantee @ June 29 2005,14:55) | ||
Quantizing also often involves extending the duration of notes, so I'd be pretty impressed if someone could pull that off seamlessly for general music audio. Tony |
An app called Melodyne does this...
Well Tony, how often do you alter the duration of a drum hit? 
But extending the duration of a note ain’t too much of a problem, you just choose a loop point and loop length, quite easy and quick to do in Fruity Loops.
As for it being “seamless”, that depends how much effort you put into it. But in Cubase and Fruity, it’s usually good ennuff with the minimum amount of effort.
If you use good soundfonts much, you’ll know how good a looped audio sample can be,
Of course, if you’re talking about an isolated solo instrument, then you have to be more finicky, but if it’s buried in the mix, the ear can be very forgiving, (well, mine can be after several beers anyway. 
).
But you and Rich are correct of course, quantising Audio ain’t as easy as quantising MIDI, but there again, it’s probably not as hard as you might think. In fact, people who use Loop based proggies use audio slicers quite a lot.
But, if you’re interested, give 'em a try and judge for yourself. Trial versions of both programs are widely available.
Using loops and stretching audio is different to an application making a decision about where a note actually begins and deciding to quantise based on where it thinks the note should really be…
If using your ear you can easily yourself manually move audio around.
Loops work because you know what the bpm of the original sample was so if you want it to fit into a song with a different bpm, it is just a simple maths excercise to convert it to a different bpm.
Quantising midi works because the quantiser knows where eachnote begins and can see whether it is on the beat or not.
With and audio sample unless you tell it what bpm it is and that sample has been recorded in time then the quantiser won’t know where each not begins and be able to comare that to it’s tempo map…
From what I’ve seen of melodyne it will do pitch shifting and stretching but won’t quantise a wav file…
Rich
[edit] Just realised that with Melodyne once you convert your wav to midi you can quantise it… so as long as your wav converts to midi ok then you can quantise it… still would be hard to quantise the audio though [\edit]
Ach well, I won’t argue with you Rich.
One thing the years have taught me, is that the more I think I know, the less I actually really know, (and I was pretty dumb to start with! )
Ali
No worries Ali.
I could be talking out of my ass as well… 
This is all just based on my own pickled brains reasoning
It just seems to me that using loops is one thing - the PC knows the original and target tempo, plus you are telling the PC where the loop should start and stop.
Quantising is completely different because you are basically asking the PC to make a decision as to whether something is in the right place or not and move it if it isn’t.
With midi there are distinct events that it can do this on.
With audio there are no no distinct events in most cases…
Rich
Well Rich, slicing is only the first step, whether you let the proggie do it or you do it yourself, but you do have an event start, i.e., the sliced sample start.
And remember, a slicer converts one long “loop sample” into a series of totally independant “hit” samples.
How “tight” that start is, of course depends on the sample. But with something that has a slow rise time, then you just drag it a wee bit, the same as you do with a dopey fiddle player.
But think about it for a wee minute; if you’re using soundfonts, it’s no different at all. All you’re doing is playing a “sample”, and just because it’s synced to Midi clock rather than song tempo is really neither here nor there.
And as for duration of a sample, well, that depends on the sample.
A snare hit we usually just let ring, whether it’s a sliced sample, a soundfont, or an SB16 FM thingy!
And as I said, if it’s something that’s tuneful, then you just internally loop the sample, (And that’s what soundfonts do after all).
And it’s a lot easier and quicker than it sounds. It’s far easier to slice in Fruity than to do a retake.
And Cubase will analyse a track, find all the hit points, slice them, and quantise. OK, you often have to check the slice points and edit a wee bit, but, so who said engineering is easy! LOL
Anyway, as much as I love n-track, I found a whole new world opened up after playing with Fruity Loops.
It’s not an alternative, just another way of doing things, and I learned a lot about slicing for example.
I’m now (or rather, was 
) playing with Ableton Live, and that’s yet another way of approaching musical composition.
But, I’m still hunting for something that can make my songs sound more original and less crap!
Ali
hmmm… maybe I’ll have to check out this fruity world see what it’s like…
I have an older copy lying around.
Installed it ages ago, couldn’t work out how to use it and went back to n-Track.
Interface was just real confusing to me. I think i couldn’t even record a few tracks and mix them.
Seemed good for doing drum patterns but…
Rich
Rich, it is a confusing layout to start with.
The secret is the “Getting Started” file, and if you can’t see it on the web site, just PM me and I’ll send it to you.
Floops doesn’t replace n-track, it’s just another weapon in your armoury.
And Jhohan did a great write-up of how to integrate the two, (which I still have if you’re interested).
WAIT: Just changing the CD.
The Waterboys, Dream Harder. Why can’t I make music like that!
EDIT: Anyway, yeah, there’s really at least three distinct ways of approaching composition, the linear method of n-track etc., the loop based methods of Floops and Acid, and the sectional method of Ableton; and each of them have their pro’s and con’s.
But if you have at your command all three ways, who knows what can happen?
Cubase SX3 is trying to do all three at once, but to be honest, I prefer the individual proggies. For linear work, n-track is the friendliest, but cubase is much more stable. (Perhaps I need to upgrade. )
| Quote (clark_griswold @ June 29 2005,14:19) | ||||
An app called Melodyne does this… |
Melodyne apparently works with monophonic lines, e.g. lead vocal, etc., but by “general music audio” I really meant something more “general”, including chords. MIDI sequencers can quantize sloppy piano chords, shortening and/or extending notes as necessary to line up with quantization boundaries, so I was referring to something comparable for audio. With n-Track for instance, you select the MIDI notes, hit quantize, and notes in the melodies and chords are stretched/trimmed as necessary without audible seams. If it could be made that easy for general musical audio, I’d be impressed.
And if there is something out there that truly does this, then forgive my ignorance!
Tony
Ah! slicing and quantising individual notes within audio orchestrations, or even chords…
Now, that would be a damm useful app.
Ali
Ok Rich, forget Fruity and Cubase!
You just had to go and mention Melodyne didn’t you clark.
Which I DL’ed, and have spent the last hour playing with. (Melodyne Uno).
What a wonderful toy!
It’s Autotune, (but easier), and with quantise.
Ya gotta try it guys; play the included demo wave; tabla.wav, and as it’s playing, change from straight 8’s to triplet 8’s, it’s really impressive.
OK Tony, it’s still monophonic, but damned impressive for audio.
Ali
| Quote (Scantee @ June 29 2005,14:55) | ||
Quantizing also often involves extending the duration of notes, so I'd be pretty impressed if someone could pull that off seamlessly for general music audio. Tony |
There is the fact that if you trim your audio object to the first beat, put on the quantize grid, and then slide it into place you are sort of quatizing it. This is t&e though.. and standard in digital editing.
--- just thought it was time I posted another msg on here