How is one form of discrimination lesser/better than another?
Because it attempts to correct wrongs that occur in society. The goal of AA isn't to discriminate against any one group, it is to compensate & make up for discrimination that is occuring. I think Afirmative Action is absolutely necessary & I'll fight for it. The Supreme Court upheld part of it in Michigan and it's here to stay.
Toker, I think you might have misunderstood this too
Tom - you're right. I've over-simplified. Go back to the defintion of AA I posted and it covers what you are saying. AA has goals beyond just discrimination.
| Quote (Mr Soul @ April 05 2005,15:29) |
| Do you guys who propose ending AA have any idea of what the result of getting rid of AA would be? |
Whoa, dude. I did not say "Get rid of AA". I'm just pointing out the FACT that it is itself, discrimination. That's all.
I don't honestly know enough about AA to argue it one way or the other. I HAVE seen several "incidences" where it came into play and the outcome did not make sense to me. Maybe it needs an oil change, tire rotation and chassis lube?
TG
| Quote (John @ April 05 2005,13:55) |
| anybody else watch that Buddy Rich video? He was pretty smokin'! I like the little thing he did right near the end when he was doing rolls on just his sticks; he wasn't taking himself to seriously, and seemed to be having a great time. |
Yes indeed. And it was pretty dang awesome!!
TG
Whoa, dude. I did not say "Get rid of AA".
When you say it's bad and it sucks, that implies you would get rid of it if given the choice.
When you say it's bad and it sucks, that implies you would get rid of it if given the choice.
Here’s what I typed re: Affirmitive Action
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| Affirmative Action = more devisiveness. Quite the opposite of what it had hoped to achieve IMO. |
Here is what I typed re: Negative atmospheric pressure.
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| I agree. ANY form of discrimination sucks. |
So you agree with me that AA IS discrimination? That’s what I said sucks so I guess since AA is discrimination…
Is that what you mean? What day is this? Is this the YWCA Tennis Club forum? IF so where is the locker room?
Obviously, I am confused. 
TG
| Quote (gtr4him @ April 05 2005,15:20) |
| Dear Mr. Y, "I'm sorry, we can't hire/admit you sir. You see, you are perfect for the position, but we have too many YYYY here already." Of course employers cannot come out and SAY that even though that IS what happens! So.... what's the difference? I agree. ANY form of discrimination sucks. |
That happend to me in 1983. I had just graduated from Braodcasting School and was looking for a job in small market radio. I applied, and was interviewed for a job as "Production Director" (basically engineering all of the on-air spots in the production studio). They loved my demo-reel (1/4" reel-to-reel tape, I was a mean mo-fo with a grease-pen and a razor-blade back then), and they seemed very interested.
A few days later I was told (via telephone) that they really, really wanted to hire me, but doing so would increase their total number of employees to 12 (or whatever) and that federal law says that any companies with that number of employees had to have X number of minorities... They couldn't hire me because I had the wrong skin color.
Instead I wound up working for some crappy beautiful music station that was housed in an old run-down double-wide out in the middle of the woods. Hated it, got out of radio, etc, etc...
So... Yes it happens. Yes it happened to me. And yes, it probably had a significant affect on my life. (good or bad, who knows?)
| Quote (gtr4him @ April 05 2005,15:45) | ||
Yes indeed. And it was pretty dang awesome!! TG |
I was trying to change the subject... I guess it didn't work.
No - I don’t agree that AA is discrimination. I believe AA is good. I believe that like the Supreme Court, race can be a factor for universities shaping their admissions programs, saying a broad social value may be gained from diversity in the classroom.
| Quote (John @ April 05 2005,16:38) | ||
That happend to me in 1983. I had just graduated from Braodcasting School and was looking for a job in small market radio. I applied, and was interviewed for a job as "Production Director" (basically engineering all of the on-air spots in the production studio). They loved my demo-reel (1/4" reel-to-reel tape, I was a mean mo-fo with a grease-pen and a razor-blade back then), and they seemed very interested. A few days later I was told (via telephone) that they really, really wanted to hire me, but doing so would increase their total number of employees to 12 (or whatever) and that federal law says that any companies with that number of employees had to have X number of minorities... They couldn't hire me because I had the wrong skin color. Instead I wound up working for some crappy beautiful music station that was housed in an old run-down double-wide out in the middle of the woods. Hated it, got out of radio, etc, etc... So... Yes it happens. Yes it happened to me. And yes, it probably had a significant affect on my life. (good or bad, who knows?) |
I hear you John. I got my chances at a really sweet FEDERAL GOVERNMENT job shot out from under me for TWO reasons. I have the wrong skin color AND I am male.
Oh well, gaurding nuclear material might have adversely affected my future child fathering prospects so, I guess all is well!
The thing is, up until they closed down that facility a couple years ago, they NEVER did meet the "quota". Guys had to rotate pulling double shifts for YEARS to cover an empty slot.
So, despite what Mike says, you can't level the playing field until ALL discrimination is removed! You CANNOT legislate ethics/morality. Nope. It don't WORK.
**Insert infamous Forrest Gump quote here.**
TG
Guys,
In a perfect world, AA would be intolerable and certainly unfair. I personally don’t think AA does as much good as those who invented the concept think is does. First off, it causes a situation where one group of people points it’s fingers in hate of another group of people (the haves and the have nots). And even though historically various groups of people have been not allowed into various jobs/colleges/etc. , how can you legislate certain equality with a program that in it’s concept is inequitable? I have seen many people who were supposted to be helped by these AA programs that have instead been hurt by them in so many ways (morally, psychologically, emotionally… etc). They have been led to believe that they cannot get in a job/school without AA.
I think if it were a perfect world, we would not need AA. The problem is that it is not a perfect world. There are many enlightened people who are not really open-minded and hold grudges against various groups of people (women, hispanics, blacks, gays, etc). So what do we do to level the playing field? Affirmative Action. It is not a great answer, but I don’t see a better one being batted around.
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| You CANNOT legislate ethics/morality. Nope. It don’t WORK. |
Isn’t this exactly what the current administration is trying it’s hardest to do? Hmmmmm…
Mike
Ach, so many oversimplifications! Sounds like we’ve listened to too many soundbites!
We can and have legislated ethics - e.g., the prohibition against murder, or rape. It works.
Affirmative action is intended to rectify present effects of past harms. Laws against discrimination take care of presetn acts of discrimination.
I dunno, Dr. Guitar, I think that AA is not inequitable - although it does indeed discriminate. the two are not the same.
gtr4mhim, for what it’s worth, it is not the case that all forms of discrimination suck. Employers discriminate every time they hired or fire or promote someone, etc. - between qualified and unqualified candidates. That form of discrimination is totally appropriate. As i said before, not all discrimination is bad - we gotta stop the loose usage of the term here, or we won’t get anywhere.
I dunno, Dr. Guitar, I think that AA is not inequitable - although it does indeed discriminate. the two are not the same.
They definitely are not the same. A true equity for past discrimination against various groups would be some sort of reparations. Yet there is no way to get that right either. YOu cannot truely make up for the past, you can only learn from it. I would be happy if we as a people could even do that.
Mike
They definitely are not the same. A true equity for past discrimination against various groups would be some sort of reparations. Yet there is no way to get that right either. YOu cannot truely make up for the past, you can only learn from it. I would be happy if we as a people could even do that.
Mike
| Quote (DrGuitar @ April 05 2005,20:30) |
| They definitely are not the same. A true equity for past discrimination against various groups would be some sort of reparations. |
Reparations to whom? There are no blacks alive in this country today that have been slaves, so how do you decide who gets the payout?
Paid by whom? My ancestors came from England in the late 1800's, well after slavery was over and done with. The guy that owns the gas station on the corner came from India eight years ago. Please explain why our resources (tax money?) should be given to people that were never slaves as some sort of reparation? And what difference would it make? What do we do, write a check for $10K to every black person that can prove the are descended from slaves? What would that change? How would that make anything better?
I have seen many people who were supposted to be helped by these AA programs that have instead been hurt by them in so many ways (morally, psychologically, emotionally... etc). They have been led to believe that they cannot get in a job/school without AA.
That's because AA is demeaning. It's an insult. It's our way of saying "It's not enough to give you a fair shot on a level playing field, you aren't capable of accomplishing anything unless you are given special privilege." I can see where a thinking person would have some issues with being treated in that manner.
And even though historically various groups of people have been not allowed into various jobs/colleges/etc.
Yes. In the past this was true. However... Today... I had nice chitchat throughout the day with the sweet black woman that has occupied the cubicle next to mine for the past four years. A young black girl took my lunch order at Fudrucker’s, and I was surrounded by (gasp!) people of nearly every ethnicity you could imagine. This evening I sat in a classroom full of blacks, browns, whites, and most everything in between listening to a black man teach the class (he was being observed this evening by his Asian superior). And tonight I come home to hear my Hispanic neighbor's TV quietly through my wall, and outside I can hear the sound of some young kids running through the courtyard.... Let me go look... (gasp!) They’re black.
My point? The past is over, and it's time to move on and find things that unite us as a society instead of constantly looking for ways to divide us.
John,
Me thinks thou dost protest too much.
I agree the reparations would not work… I even stated so before you went on a rant…
I agree that AA can be demeaning. I said so. And I am glad you have given credit to those people as being thinking people.
There are people of every ethnic background all around. YOu made the point that they work with us and even run through our yards.
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| My point? The past is over, and it’s time to move on and find things that unite us as a society instead of constantly looking for ways to divide us. |
I couldn’t agree more, I am just not so sure you believe it. I’m sure I must be wrong.
Mike
| Quote (DrGuitar @ April 05 2005,20:30) |
| I dunno, Dr. Guitar, I think that AA is not inequitable - although it does indeed discriminate. the two are not the same. |
My wife went to AA, for 2 years and eventually quit drinking altogether! I think the organization is great, regardless of your color...tee hee
I just wish there was a “not enough” choice.
DrG: Of course reparations work. Not as well as they should, but they do work. Just look at the stats for higher ed over the last half century. I have trouble understanding how anyone could come to the conclusion that they don’t work.
John: reparations to those who suffer present effects from past denials of civil rights, as I said before. The present economic and social effects of both slavery and segregation are well and thoroughly documented. Again, I have trouble understanding why this is even an issue. It’d be nice if the past were over, but a quick look at economic and social stats for members of historically oppressed groups not only shows otherwise, it shows that since we adopted conservative policies on the issue we have been moving backwards. Remember: your lone experience is anecdotal, you need to look at the patterns.
The demeaning argument was cooked up by conservatives, and is simply hogwash - sorry, but having had extensive expereince with equal opportunity processes it is just so obvious to me that the argument is a non-starter.
| Quote (DrGuitar @ April 05 2005,21:44) |
| Me thinks thou dost protest too much. I agree the reparations would not work... I even stated so before you went on a rant... |
And methinks thou dost label too quickly in calling my post a rant. I made very valid and reasonable points.
*we don't see eye to eye* and that's fine.
Let's talk about something else.
| Quote (DrGuitar @ April 05 2005,21:44) |
| There are people of every ethnic background all around. YOu made the point that they work with us and even run through our yards. |
Ok... I'm not sure what you're real intention is with this particular line and the way you have it highlighted, but it certainly comes across that you are implying that I am of the "US" and "THEM" mindset. Well... Maybe I suppose that as long as groups of people insist on setting them selves apart from other people, verbage like that will remains necessary for clarification.
***EDIT***
Funny thing is that I went back and re-read my post, I never used those terms. Please try to refrain from putting words in my mouth.
| Quote (DrGuitar @ April 05 2005,21:44) |
| I couldn't agree more, I am just not so sure you believe it. I'm sure I must be wrong. |
Cut the sanctimonious crap and go stick your head in a toilet.
I tried playing nice.
You are a self-righteous ass.
