How to determine the "key" of a song?

n-Track Studio Discussion Forum
21
Quote (YazMiester @ Feb. 28 2005,05:30)
Wow, knowledgable people on this here forum, John ya confused enough YET? :D

Yes.


Tom... Thanks for the list, I appreciate you taking the time to do that for me! What I'm really trying to get at is - what are the rules that determine what to call the key of a song?
Yeah, I know my stuff insn't Blues at all, but this guy can play jist about anything, and I figured that he would do well on my song "Stranger". We actually played it the other night and he sounded pretty darn close to the original lead track I recorded, or at least he maintained the theme that I established... Either way, it was pretty cool.


As for the Les Paul/Strat thing... Pink Floyd's "The Wall" would not sound right played on anything but a Strat, but I usually prefer the sound of a Les Paul.

John, do you know what makes up a diatonic scale? That will make your life a whole lot easier.

Are you talking:

A Bb B C Db D Eb E F Gb G Ab

(?)

I got that much.... And I understand what you mean by I IV V etc...
22

John, the rules are pretty straightforward, all you need to do is pick up a basic theory text - if I can get it anyone can! Key has to do with tonal centers and the scale intervals used, so that if the tonal center is C and the notes used are CDEFGAB it’s going to be in C major. If the tonal center is A and the notes used are CDEFGAB it’ll be A minor. Then there are a bunch of modes that no one ever pays attention to anymore that use those notes but use something other than C or A for the tonal center. You can construct your own examples for other keys, just keep the intervals the same.

So all you need to do is figure out the tonal center and then look at the notes used. Really once you get this then it usually becomes very obvious what key a given song or passage is in.

23

John:

'As for the Les Paul/Strat thing… Pink Floyd’s “The Wall” would not sound right played on anything but a Strat, but I usually prefer the sound of a Les Paul.'

I also assumed it was strat all the way on The Wall. I was blown away a few years ago to read that much of it was on a Paul, particularly the solo on part 2.
I think it’s the fingers causing the tone in this case:

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/richm/ggg0003.htm

24
Quote (TomS @ Feb. 28 2005,09:58)
So all you need to do is figure out the tonal center and then look at the notes used.

What do you mean by "Tonal Center?"
25
Quote (TomS @ Feb. 28 2005,09:58)
so that if the tonal center is C and the notes used are CDEFGAB it's going to be in C major. If the tonal center is A and the notes used are CDEFGAB it'll be A minor.

Not to be picky. But I'd say the notes for A minor are actually 'ABCDEFGA' which when played as a scale sounds different to 'CDEFGABC'.. ;)

John - The best way (from my amateur/layman/non-technical viewpoint) I can describe finding the key is to play the notes of the melody, or some 'lead' notes that sound like they fit the chord changes. Like, when you come up with a vocal melody, you are actually singing in the key of the piece - most of the time!

Once you've worked out the flats and sharps, you can then determine the key... Well, actually, once you've worked out the notes then you have one final decision, is it minor or major key (ABCDEFGA could be either A minor or C major) The tonal centre is like the note that everything returns to. Like the note that will fit in nearly everywhere and sound right (but boring!)

Another method is to listen to what the bass is playing. Simplify the bass line down to its simple form.... Just the root note(s). A lot of the time the first root note that gets played is a pretty good clue to the key of a piece. Everything resolves back to that root note.

Three-chord-trick (early Beatles stuff for example) is useful for figuring this out. It gets more difficult when you have strange chord progressions, although you might be adding in augmented Q-sharp minors or whatever, the same techniques can be applied. Which is why when musicians session jam with each other they can recognise the chord sequence and therefore the key within a few bars. (Don't you just hate that?)
26

I took a music theory course in college which covered all this theory & was very helpful. Of course, I’ve forgotten most of of the technical details but I still draw on the knowledge from time to time.

The most interesting part of the class for me was taking a common melody (we all used the same one) and harmonizing to it. Every one in the class came up with a different harmony - all interesting in their own right.

Mr Soul

27

…

28

…

29
Quote (jhonan @ Feb. 28 2005,11:12)
It gets more difficult when you have strange chord progressions, although you might be adding in augmented Q-sharp minors or whatever, the same techniques can be applied.

That's what threw the harmonica player off with some of my songs -- they tend to switch keys, or play chords that I just kinda made up because they sounded nice. The song I posted above "Stranger" is a perfect example of this, I have no idea what some of those chords are called, but I played a bass line, a lead line, and sang two part harmony over top of them...

Aside from a few months of guitar lessons when I was a kid, I'm completely self-taught by ear... Most everything I play is based on feel more than following traditional rules;I'm not saying that I'm breaking the rules to explore new ground, I'm saying that I do stuff but don't know the mathematics of why it works (or not).
30
Quote (nergle @ Feb. 28 2005,12:37)
Anyway, enough for now. :)

Thanks Ali! I'm gonna print this out when I get home and paly around on my guitar... I'm sitting here at my desk trying to visualize the finger patterns... I'm playing air-guitar. :D
31
they tend to switch keys, or play chords that I just kinda made up because they sounded nice.
Then you're harp player will just have to switch harps if he intends on playing throughout the entire song.

Mr Soul
32
Quote (John @ Feb. 28 2005,12:45)
visualize the finger patterns... I'm playing air-guitar. :D

That's when I sound the best!! :D :D

Thanks Ali. Very educational. And thanks John for starting the topic!

TG -- geetar wanker
33
Quote (Mr Soul @ Feb. 28 2005,12:47)
Then you're harp player will just have to switch harps if he intends on playing throughout the entire song.

I've seen him do that... He plays a solo (harmonica & voice) version of "Love Her With A Feeling" where he's got two in his hand at once. Pretty cool stuff. He's also a pretty good (based on my limited experience, but I like it) blues guitar play as well.

He's one of those types that can (and does) get up and jam with just about anybody.
34

I just knew Ali would fill us in on those modal things. :)

Now, someone explain Carlos Alpha to John? (to me too :) )

John, it just occurred to me that you’d be the perfect test case for taht debate we have had occasionally, re: theory, good or bad or in-between.

35
Quote (TomS @ Feb. 28 2005,15:04)
John, it just occurred to me that you'd be the perfect test case for taht debate we have had occasionally, re: theory, good or bad or in-between.

Uh-oh... I think the last time we had that discussion here, it got a little heated. The funny thing is that if the lot of us were hanging out in a bar (or pizza joint) having these talks, I doubt they would get a hot as they sometimes do.


So...

Training and theory is a good thing, but you run the risk of becoming limited by the extent of you knowledge. (never going outside the box)

Playing by feel can be a good thing, but you run the risk of becoming limited by your lack of knowledge. (not even knowing where the box is)

IMHO, of course!

:;):
36
Quote (jhonan @ Feb. 28 2005,11:12)
Not to be picky. But I'd say the notes for A minor are actually 'ABCDEFGA' which when played as a scale sounds different to 'CDEFGABC'.. ;)

Not to be super overly picky (which I totall am), but what you described is A aoleon or A natural minor. There are also the harmonic and melodic minors which are ABCDEFG# and ABCDEF#G# respectively.

As for the basic definition of a diatonic scale, it is one where each note value is only used once, has only one tritone, and a few other chordal rules that aren't practical to get into here. (Fine, it has 3 sets of major triads, thus I IV V works oh so well) So ABCDEFG (or an accidental form of each) is used only once. So lets look at a few diatonic scales.

C Major: CDEFGAB
G Major: GABCDEF#
D Natural minor : DEFGABbC
D Major: DEF#GABbC

What makes a scale major, minor (any of the various flavors), or a mode, is the space between the notes. A major scale is composed of:

start on the tonic
full step
1/2 step
full step
full step
full step
1/2 step

A full step is two frets on guitar or two notes apart on the piano. A half step is one fret on guitar or one note on the piano

So if you start on any note and count these steps, you will have a major scale. The names of the notes are then derived from the fact that a diatonic scale can only have each letter used once (again super simplified, sorry uber theory nerds. I know, harmonic/melodic minor etc looks like this too, but they are not diatonic...). So lets construct a G major scale.

We start on G. That is our root of the scale.
Now move 1 step up, we get to A.
1 step up from A is B.
1/2 step up from B is C
1 step up from C is D
1 step up from D is E
1 step up from E is F#/Gb in this case we will call it F# because G was already used earlier.
1/2 step up from F# is G again.


now notice above the only difference in the DMaj and DMin scale is the third note. So a Natural minor/aeoleon scale is composed of:

start on the tonic (tonic = root)
full step
1/2 step
full step
full step
1/2 step
full step
full step


This is super simplified, but hopefully it will scratch the surface enough to get you know somewhat where to start.
37

…

38

…

39
Quote (John @ Feb. 28 2005,15:11)
Training and theory is a good thing, but you run the risk of becoming limited by the extent of you knowledge. (never going outside the box)

Playing by feel can be a good thing, but you run the risk of becoming limited by your lack of knowledge. (not even knowing where the box is)

IMHO, of course!

:;):

The problem is the folks who plant themselves in a camp. They refuse to learn theory or go by feel. The real pros know how to mix both to their benefit. Somedays you just can't feel your way through a movie score and you have to go back to theory to jump start stuff. Some days you just feel inspired and can go be feel, theory be damned. But to ignore one or the other, you are limiting yourself unduly either way.

Nope, didn't see your accordion comment. As for the melodic minor, yup, that is super picky, especially when we are trying to get the poor guy to just construct a plain old major scale. What a bunch of nerds....
40

…