Then it’s probably because you’re not spending enough on education.
| Quote (Mr Soul @ June 22 2005,17:32) |
| Then it's probably because you're not spending enough on education. |
of course!... there's a problem, so throw more money at it!...
here is some edumacation fer ya:
http://cato.org/research/education/fed-education.html
isaac
It’s guys like you who are causing the education system to go down the tubes.
California used to have one of the best education systems in the States but since Prop 13, it’s been devestated. That’s why I can afford to send my kids to private school, becuase my taxes are so low out here.
I don’t listen the CATO institute at all - it’s one of the most right-wing biased groups to come down the pike.
Clarke - here are some stat’s I just found - Minnesota Continues Strong Showing in National and Statewide Testing. They don’t seem to jive with what you’re saying?
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| It’s guys like you who are causing the education system to go down the tubes. |
alright!.. now that you’ve referenced the “right wing smear machine” numerous times, i find it amusing that you’re parlaying the same!..
ha ha ha!..
oh wait… you’re not kidding about cato being “most right-wing” are you?.. wow…
<=== mike can be found way, way, way over there…
… isaac
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| why do people continue to falsely accuse me of being a republican?.. i’ve already been through this earlier with the other mike… sheesh… isaac |
If it thinks like a republican and talks like a republican… Haven’t you ever wondered why you keep getting accused of being one?
And guys, as far as the statistics on testing in your state, it is just another way to lie. Do you really believe that your child’s greatest experience in school will be built around a standardized test? How sad would that be. Do you believe that those tests are anything more than arm twisting leverage when it comes to funding?
Ughhhh… I see nothing but spinning going on here. Those that do not want to pay for public schools are spinning stories that public schools suck and are no good compared to private schools. Of course there are instances of bad public school systems and good private schools. But I must tell you that there are also bad private schools and great public school systems. What makes a school great is support from the community. Since public schools are being attacked and no one wants to support them, they are starting to fail in greater numbers. Not because they were bad to begin with, but because of greed in the population that does not want to support them. If you want to blame someone with the failures of public education, go look in the mirror.
Mike
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| Haven’t you ever wondered why you keep getting accused of being one? |
actually, it only happened once before, so my gross exaggeration deserves that clarification… but obviously, you haven’t read the thread that dealt with this…
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| And guys, as far as the statistics on testing in your state, it is just another way to lie. Do you really believe that your child’s greatest experience in school will be built around a standardized test? |
i agree with you that statistics cannot always be trusted… and i see your point concerning the “experience”… but please, do tell - how are we to gauge the existing pupils and calibrate for improvement?..
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| Those that do not want to pay for public schools are spinning stories that public schools suck and are no good compared to private schools. |
i earlier stated:
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| and i soundly concede that the “best” government school can be “better” than the “worst” private school… but a government school is still an appendage of the government… my personal outlook is that it is best to reduce governmental intervention in American lives and to realign ourselves with a sense of personal responsibility… |
my founding quarrel with government education is - well, that it’s government education…
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| I see nothing but spinning going on here. |
very true, but it’s not from me
…mike, why are you still teaching at a private school if it’s something you detest so much?.. even “soul” mike admits:
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| My kid’s go to the private school where my wife teaches & they associate with rich, priviledged brats. I don’t like it but it works out best of us to send them there. If I didn’t live in CA, I would probably send my kids to public school. |
this certainly isn’t helping an argument that is attempting to prop government schools… simply because “it works out best of us” - convenience has supplanted an active role in a child’s education…
with love,
isaac
| Quote (clark_griswold @ June 22 2005,16:21) | ||
I just cut the check for my step-kids to go to their school. To keep them out of public schools is worth every penny. And attitudes like this one cement my decision!! How can you turn education into a class war? #### Dr. Guitar, you made Mt. Dew come out my nose with that one! |
Because it is class war. DrG is sooo right.
I have to quote this too, just so everyone has to rad it again.
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| And guys, as far as the statistics on testing in your state, it is just another way to lie. Do you really believe that your child’s greatest experience in school will be built around a standardized test? How sad would that be. Do you believe that those tests are anything more than arm twisting leverage when it comes to funding? Ughhhh… I see nothing but spinning going on here. Those that do not want to pay for public schools are spinning stories that public schools suck and are no good compared to private schools. Of course there are instances of bad public school systems and good private schools. But I must tell you that there are also bad private schools and great public school systems. What makes a school great is support from the community. Since public schools are being attacked and no one wants to support them, they are starting to fail in greater numbers. Not because they were bad to begin with, but because of greed in the population that does not want to support them. If you want to blame someone with the failures of public education, go look in the mirror. Mike |
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| Because it is class war. |
i can’t agree that it is a class war, but i would like to add that i can’t recall anyone here who supports private schooling that has complained about the taxation side to this…
regardless of this i hope that we can all agree that we should do whatever possible to promote education in it’s truest form… as we sit and bang our heads together, we risk having an increased number of high school dropouts and children not learning to read, etc…
just a thought…
ike
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| but i would like to add that i can’t recall anyone here who supports private schooling that has complained about the taxation side to this… |
You’re either naive or ignorant, because the people who don’t want their kids to go to public school want vouchers, or they don’t want to pay the taxes, like here in CA.
sorry, mike… i should have clarified that by “here” i meant the forum… …
yes, i am aware that some people don’t want to pay taxes to support government school systems… but voucher systems don’t mean that taxes will be eliminated… in fact, the touted voucher programs with which i am familiar require that the recipients of a voucher be a tax payer…
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| You’re either naive or ignorant… |
nope, neither one…
isaac
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| mike, why are you still teaching at a private school if it’s something you detest so much? |
Issac, you can be quite a baiter. The fact is that no where in my statements did I say that I detest teaching at a private school. I simply pointed out that a private school education is not necessarily better than a public school one. It is you that sounds like you detest public schools. I would have to admit that I do not prefer one over the other but consider both types of schools needed in a balanced society. Private schools are great for students of special needs (ie. religious, discipline, learning problems or accelerated learning…etc.). Public schools are great for the masses of people who want a balanced education. These are very simple explanations, but you can see that private and public schools fill different voids needed in an educated society.
Now I would like you to look into the future of private schools if we could actually do away with the public school system. With so many diverse people attending private schools, wouldn’t those same schools then have many of the problems that the public schools have today? And how long would it be before those same “private” schools needed government funding to handle the “public” load? And best of all, those “private” schools wouldn’t have the over-see of the government education officials to make sure your child is being well-educated.
You see issac, it is the public schools system that helps keep private schools honest. Sure, they don’t have to comply with government standards, but if private schools students start to score lower than a neighboring public school, then those private schools work even harder to keep up appearances.
So for every obvious reason for public schooling, there are plenty of less obvious ones.
Mike
By the way, I love my job (I must, I have been doing it for over 30 years) and I love teaching. Most of all, I love it when a student learns a life lesson. I learn life lessons all the time.
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| The fact is that no where in my statements did I say that I detest teaching at a private school. |
as you somehow erroneously derived from my comments that i am a republican, i feel the same liberty to paint my own portraits… if you “love your job” so much, then why refer to your clients as “privileged snobs” and that they are “hidden from reality and diversity”… the sum of your own comments led to my conclusion… tell me, mike, am i looking too deeply into those types of statements?
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| …if private schools students start to score lower than a neighboring public school, then those private schools work even harder to keep up appearances |
and you would discourage such a comptetitive spirit?.. anyone who cares about a child’s education would want that child to succeed no matter where they are enrolled… if we could have government schools respond in the same manner, then we may not have been involved in this debate…
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| And best of all, those “private” schools wouldn’t have the over-see of the government education officials to make sure your child is being well-educated. |
one can always hope… if the government schools are staffed with poorly trained administrators now, then how do you know that the current criteria for “well-educated” is enough of a challenge to help students advance mentally?.. it’s apparent to me that we continue to throw monies into the fire to keep it flaming, when we could just as easily stoke it… forgive the analogy, i was reared in the south
… sadly, i saw first hand how students can be coddled and then exit the school having learned next to nothing… call me an idealist, but these kids need and want to be challenged… if they’ve no goals and an involved mentor (teacher/parent), then how will any cognitive abilities develop properly?.. one of my favorite activities is volunteering at a local homeless shelter (who would’ve thought that ike has a heart?!)… when i get around these children, they are incredibly excited about my being there to help them with learning computing skills… it’s always a great opportunity… and guess what, there’s no government intervention to critique my methods or tell me that the subject matter should be diluted to the youngest/weakest child… the teacher:student ratio allows me to be effective with them at all levels… nonetheless, i prefer to be a person who “can do”…
ok, that was a tangent of some sort…
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| …private and [government] schools fill different voids needed in an educated society. |
ok, i can agree with this (can you believe it?!
)… or am i just extremely tired? … montessori, magnet schools, blah, blah…hugs and kisses,
isaac
Come on! A 2 inch blade, a weapon?
You’d do more damage hitting someone with a spare teacher.
In fact, when I was in the boy scouts, a pocket knife was part of the uniform, (and there was something about rubbing two teachers together to start a fire, but perhaps I’m wrong, things get hazy after a while. Anyway, it worked for me. ).
Anyway Brian, sue everyone. Especially those idiots who say that “violence is wrong” (yeah sure, live in the real world will ya! LOL).
Wait no! School is different, it’s a haven of peace and trust! (Yeah right, that’s why the bastards search your private personal locker. 
).
Anyway, tell him to wait till he graduates, then he can go to Iraq, and they’ll give him a gun and a tank of napalm and order him to slaughter as many people as he can.
Long live hypocrisy! LOL
Anyway Brian, I share your anger and frustration. I’ve been there mate.
And as long as people say things like “we can’t handle it case by case” you’re screwed.
They’ve forgotten that kids aren’t robots, but they’re actually human beings, and every one is different, every case is different, and every child is unique.
(Oh yeah, they need to bring back corporal punishment too. It doesn’t work for most kids, most just need guidance, but some need a whack around the head, or at least the threat of one! )
| Quote (DrGuitar @ June 22 2005,13:38) |
| So issac, you go ahead and waste your money on an expensive private school. Show your kid how it is to be a privilaged snob. Hide them from reality and diversity. Maybe they will grow up to feel like the world owes them something like so many private school kids feel. |
That's very closed-minded.
You've just negatively stereotyped a huge group of people based on the type of school they attend.
Gee, if kids who go to private schools are "snobs", I guess I should also believe the following:
Gays want to rape our kids.
Girls with tongue rings are cocksuckers.
Italians are in the Mafia.
Muslims are terrorists.
And so on...
Your "snob" generalization is no different from any of those.
Please tell me you're kidding. Otherwise, open your mind.
Failing those options, could you please try to justify this opinion? If you can say something to make me see it your way, go ahead. Right now I just think you have a very narrow-minded opinion of a broad group of people.
(...No, I'm not a republican. I did not attend a private school. I'm not trying to push any sort of political agenda whatsoever. Guess what? I voted for Kerry. So uh, don't try to sling any of that "you're a right-wing nutball" crap at me, okay?)
Jason, how about this: secular private schools in wealthy areas are usually places in which the socialization promotes privileged snobbery.
issac, it can be class war without taxes coming into it. Note that a voucher system forces me to pay taxes to support, e.g., schools with a fundamentalist religious agenda. That is something I find appaling. And it works for the nuts on the religious right as well as the ultra rich - they can still claim to be good citizens paying taxes, while those taxes and more are diverted to their schools, where they teach their agenda, their intolerant attitudes. So it’s both class war and culture war.
Also - the lack of government oversight you mention when teaching kids about computers is deeply troubling - since that government oversight is about guaranteeing neutrality. Suppose you were one of those fundies, who saw every moment as a moment to spread the gospel. I darn well don’t want my kids subject to that dangerous and immoral bullshit - and yet, in our public school, they are repeatedly exposed to fundie Christian values and the fundamentalist worldview, and continually subject to implicit and explicit criticism of any other alternative. It pervades even public schools. Perhaps this doesn’t matter in the shelter, but in a first grade classroom in a public school religion has no place. So eliminating oversight is not a solution - at least not one that would work for working class or non-fundies.
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| private schools in wealthy areas are usually places in which the socialization promotes privileged snobbery. |
an indefensible generalization… because you consider some people “snobs”, does not mean that others do the same… i may call them “successful”…
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| …they are repeatedly exposed to fundie Christian values and the fundamentalist worldview, and continually subject to implicit and explicit criticism of any other alternative. It pervades even public schools. |
personally, i can agree to a point about secularism in schools… i don’t feel that these facilities should eliminate all references to religions… personally, i don’t mind that there are prayer groups, bible studies, etc. on campuses… so long as it doesn’t enter the curriculum… that said, i also believe that opinion should be eliminated as well - left and right opionions… of course, the beauty of having private schools is that the devoted parent can choose the institution most reflective of their beliefs towards education…
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| Note that a voucher system forces me to pay taxes to support, e.g., schools with a fundamentalist religious agenda. |
then you must also note that a voucher system forces the “fundamentalists” to contribute tax monies to support schools which they would rather not… just because you have tagged them as “fundamentalists”, does not make it so… they may find it just as appalling that the schools they are helping to fund are teaching sex education with bananas and condoms (sound familiar?)…
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| …taxes and more are diverted to their schools… |
well, they pay more taxes into the system, right?.. of course, this will spark yet another argument…
…isaac
From m-w.com:
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| Main Entry: snob Pronunciation: 'snäb Function: noun Etymology: origin unknown 1 British : COBBLER 2 : one who blatantly imitates, fawningly admires, or vulgarly seeks association with those regarded as social superiors 3 a : one who tends to rebuff, avoid, or ignore those regarded as inferior b : one who has an offensive air of superiority in matters of knowledge or taste |
I take it that 3a and b are the relevant defs. These are empirically testable, I think, and all we’d have to do to settle that part of the argument is identify the relevant schools and do the observations. 10 bucks says I’m correct, however, and I make that judgment based on anecdotal, personal experience.
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| (…No, I’m not a republican. I did not attend a private school. I’m not trying to push any sort of political agenda whatsoever. Guess what? I voted for Kerry. |
I had high hopes for you Jason!!!