ID versus Creationism?

Quote (g8torcliff @ Nov. 22 2005,10:47)
i think for any person to be truly educated, they should be taught that there are two schools of thought on this issue. which they prefer to believe is their own choice. to argue over which is correct is pointless because it can never be proven.

Only two schools of thought? I guess you could say that “in the western hemisphere” there are two schools of thought that are the most popular. I believe that there are hundreds of concepts on the origin of the universe. Many are faith based and many are scientifically based. The problems arise when you confuse faith and scientific schools of thought. I guess to be fair we should teach what the aborigines believe is the origin of the universe since their ideas are also faith based. We definitely do not want to leave out any other religions since we are a society of free thought and absent of religious persecution. If we are to include faith based ideas in science class, we have to include all religions or we have to include none… isn’t that only fair?


Dam* Tom, you beat me to it… :)

"i think for any person to be truly educated, they should be taught that there are two schools of thought on this issue. which they prefer to believe is their own choice. to argue over which is correct is pointless because it can never be proven."

I agree with this. This is actualy the status quo. Science is taught in science class and creationism is taught in sunday school. Perfect. Nobody’s saying we need to enforce that evolution be taught at sunday school.

so there is “science” based and there is “faith” based…seems like two schools of thought to me.

That is the whole debate… Folks are trying to get ID accepted as science where as some see it as a veiled attempt to sneak in creationism.

Hmmm, I’ve got a wee problem here…

I was checking out “The Origin of Species” hoping to find that the book had evolved naturally, however, it appears it was created. :(

Quote (DrGuitar @ Nov. 22 2005,11:25)
Quote (g8torcliff @ Nov. 22 2005,10:47)
i think for any person to be truly educated, they should be taught that there are two schools of thought on this issue. which they prefer to believe is their own choice. to argue over which is correct is pointless because it can never be proven.

Only two schools of thought? I guess you could say that "in the western hemisphere" there are two schools of thought that are the most popular. I believe that there are hundreds of concepts on the origin of the universe. Many are faith based and many are scientifically based. The problems arise when you confuse faith and scientific schools of thought. I guess to be fair we should teach what the aborigines believe is the origin of the universe since their ideas are also faith based. We definitely do not want to leave out any other religions since we are a society of free thought and absent of religious persecution. If we are to include faith based ideas in science class, we have to include all religions or we have to include none.... isn't that only fair?


Dam* Tom, you beat me to it... :)

Yeah, but you said it better. :)

Quote (TomS @ Nov. 22 2005,07:22)
Jerm, why do you #### newton?

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He is not contrained by our worldly knowlege and limits we have put on ourselves by “scientific principles”–DAM YOU NEWTON!


Why?
Being physical beings we hold ourselves to the contraints of our perceptions.
The more we define, the more we limit our own ability to look beyond our definitions.
Since Newton is responsible for alot of what we “define” our planet and universe in, I dam him, in a gesting way…not in my heart mind you!! :D
All throughout the Bible there are demonstrations of how mans need to justify every physical action by means of reason only limits our ability to look and move beyond the physical realm.
When God commanded Moses to tell the rock to give forth water was a good example.
All Moses had to do was speak it, "Rock give forth water!!"
But what did he do?
Even being the man of great faith as he was he commanded the rock, but being a human and bound by the need to do things in the physical, he struck the rock with his staff as he spoke, bringing forth the water. God then punished his people for this action, 40 more years in the desert if my memory serves me correct.
What was God trying to teach us here?
Why punish him and his people simple for adding a physical action to a spoken word of faith?
Seems pretty obvious to me, but read it for yourselves and come to your own conclusions.
Another good example is the account of Jesus walking on water.
If you look at this account, in a scientific manner it would lead one to think somehow God has a greater technology than even our present, and He somehow used His greater technology to preform this trick upon us.
However if you put science as we know it and all the priniciples we have known to rely on aside it is possible to veiw this account in a different way.
Perhaps Jesus having the knowlege of His father was aware that water can be many things. And rather than us some scientific methods to change it, He simple willed it to support Him.
I beleive it was Peter, and correct me if I’m wrong, who also was abled to walk by faith, on something he had learned all His life to be unable to support such an action.
Peter walked, because he beleived.
We sink, for our disbelief, in the very same water.
Again read it and come to your own conclusion.
There is so much more in this universe than can be explained by the physical realm.
90 percent of our brains, unused?
A spirit in our body that cannot be seen, or measured but we cannot live without it. (that’s why we can’t just make a man from parts) You can remove/ relace parts to a human body and it will live. But no matter what condition the body is in (even healthy, if the spirit leaves, the body dies)
So what can be learned by all our worldly knowlege?
Only that we really don’t know anything.
We are only observing things after they happen, and not actually creating the actions with our words or hearts, as He does.
There are powers within us and around us which we will never use as long as we stay confinded to the principles we as man rely on for security.
After all it is our own fear of a dangerous universe without definitions that keeps us from venturing into this uncharted area of our minds hearts and souls.
What would we do if we could change matter by faith to any form? People could walk through solid objects. Locks and doors would be of no consiquence. What would stop somone from drifting through the bed below them as they sleep?
Shurely a world without such restraints would be dangerous indeed. So we stay here. In our safe place. Where everything is defined. And matter remains constant until acted upon by an outside force.
Sleep tight on your solid beds tonight. And don’t worry folks, as long as you beleive everything around you is solid and real, it will stay that way, another day!








:D
jerm

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What would we do if we could change matter by faith to any form? People could walk through solid objects. Locks and doors would be of no consiquence. What would stop somone from drifting through the bed below them as they sleep?


How many doors you walked into lately Jerm? ???

Heheh, here’s a joke to get Tom upset! Actually, I’ll change the joke…

Q. Willy walks into a wall with an erect penis. What does he break?
A. His nose. (no, that wouldn’t happen, actually - but I do have a big nose)

Willy.

Eyup!

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a wall with an erect penis


I think that would contravene building regulations in th UK :D

Steve

:D :D :D :D :D

Jeremy, have you ever read the Yoga Sutras of Pantanjali? You might find them quite interesting, especially the thrid part.

Here - read Pada III:
http://reluctant-messenger.com/yoga-sutras.htm

Quote (Willy @ Nov. 22 2005,08:27)
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He is not contrained by our worldly knowlege and limits we have put on ourselves by “scientific principles”–DAM YOU NEWTON!


I think it’s more that Newton discovered, or described, the laws god put in place to make the place work. Don’t shoot the mesenger.

Thats why Jesus says all worldly knowlege puffeth up.
Only the word of God and His wisdom remains for ever.

Newton was a very brilliant man and did have superb powers of observation a deduction.
But without faith one is only that, and observer of action.
How many years did he waist in alkemy? Searching for that silly majic stone? One that could make gold, heal the sick. BAH!
That such a brilliant mind could fall privy to such tom foolery only shows how misguided our minds often are when we place faith in science instead of God.
God made gold, and everything else on this planet.
God heals the sick, not a phony stone.
All knowlege and wisom comes from above.
So in effect Newton was given understanding and only a minute fraction of a percent around the sum of .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

0000000000000000000000000001% of Gods wisdom.—Newton always did like playing with numbers!
If God wanted one of us to know to even more wonders He would let it be known as well.


Oh yeah, Tom,
I did read III.
I am curious as to the origin of these text…will research further.
The site said 200 BC.
But the priniciples outlined seem simular to many pre-Christian text. The early Koran, and Bible.
How many of these consepts have drifted from there origin, becoming entities of there own around the globe centuries later?

keepshinin’ guys

jerm


:cool:

Eyup!

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But without faith one is only that, and observer of action.


Do I take that as meaning that, with faith one can determine and change God’s will?

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That such a brilliant mind could fall privy to such tom foolery only shows how misguided our minds often are when we place faith in science instead of God.


Um, isn’t the point of science that there is no faith, only testable hypothesis. Science is not faith. Science is not a religion.

I’d be interested to know how you calculated the sum of God’s wisdom.
Oh, and next time you are sick, go pray.

Steve

Why do I get the feeling some folks look at God as some sort of cosmic marionet that will do their bidding? Please God, may an ACME (ACME brand are the best.) anvil fall right on the IRS auditor… please!

Darn computer science, made my affordable home recording setup possible…

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Eyup!

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But without faith one is only that, and observer of action.


Do I take that as meaning that, with faith one can determine and change God’s will?


No, quiet the opposite grasshopper.
Faith in God, complete faith, the kind that allows you to do things that are not physically possible in our “scientific world”.
Having faith is not controlling God’s will, but rather conforming and submiting to it, even in the face of eminent destruction.
Few people in recorded history have possesed such faith and even fewer have had their accounts recorded.
:;):
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That such a brilliant mind could fall privy to such tom foolery only shows how misguided our minds often are when we place faith in science instead of God.


Um, isn’t the point of science that there is no faith, only testable hypothesis. Science is not faith. Science is not a religion.


It seems to me that science is nothing more than observation of the many things God created that cannot ever be explained, hence the endless slew of hypothosis, and theories. All of which are eventually
disproven by another, which also can’t be proven.
In the end, it will all puff up. And no matter how far we think we have figured things out, it will all seem trivial when the TRUTH of Gods wisdom is revealed. Unfortunatly, for some, this will not be the case, according to scripture. :(

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I’d be interested to know how you calculated the sum of God’s wisdom.

Reading your other post over the years I presumed you were an intellegent well learned individual.
However, reading this comment would leave one to conquer that you have no knowlege of Algebra, or Trig–one of Newtons hobbies.
Here’s is my statement.

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So in effect Newton was given understanding and only a minute fraction of a percent around the sum of .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000






000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000






000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000






000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000






000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000






0000000000000000000000000001% of Gods wisdom


I think the equation for this undetermined number would read like this…lol

X/y
____
.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000






000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000






000000000000000000000000001% =Gods Wisdom

So you do the math, I wouldn’t dare to be so arrogant.
Geeeze, I hope I wrote that right, a fraction of a percent? It’s been about 14 years since I was in any schoolin’! :p


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Oh, and next time you are sick, go pray.

That’s the smartest thing you have said in my years of observation.
Will do!
:laugh:

Oh and Tom, I truly am thankful for this program and what it has enabled me to do. However, I will give credit to God, for allowing Flavio to breath enough times to design it! Science did not give Flavio life, and science will not be able to save him on his last day, only Jesus can do that! :blues:

keep shinin’ folks

EDIT*
I will take the advice of Jesus, and not cast pearls to swine anymore.
I will however, still continue read the many humorous post on the crapper, wipe and flush each thread.

jerm

WARNING — SEMI-TANGENT RAMBLINGS ABOUND FOR DISCUSSION PURPOSES ONLY
WARNING — SEMI-TANGENT RAMBLINGS ABOUND FOR DISCUSSION PURPOSES ONLY
WARNING — SEMI-TANGENT RAMBLINGS ABOUND FOR DISCUSSION PURPOSES ONLY
WARNING — SEMI-TANGENT RAMBLINGS ABOUND FOR DISCUSSION PURPOSES ONLY

In other words, I’m sure even I know what I say below, but it doesn’t matter.
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It seems to me that science is nothing more than observation of the many things God created that cannot ever be explained, hence the endless slew of hypothosis, and theories. All of which are eventually
disproven by another, which also can’t be proven.

I think you’re totally missing the point about what science is. Science is to observe all, period, and put those observations to test by seeing the patterns in the chaos. Here’s an example, based on math.

5 6 7 8 9 _ _ _ _

Science attempts to fill in the blanks. To fill in the blanks assumptions must be made. That’s were science gets it wrong sometimes.

Which one of these is really correct?

5 6 7 8 9 10 _ _ _
5 6 7 8 9 A _ _ _

Well, to know that we’d have to make an assumption. We can base that on faith or we can base it on other science (or math in this case).

What if we actually observed this?

5 6 7 8 9 _ _ _ D

Would we still have to use faith (an assumption)?

What about this one? Given this observable pattern:

… 5 _ _ _ 10 _ _ _ …

We can guess the whole pattern will look like this:

0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 30

That’s what science can tell us. What would faith tell us?

Math is easy compared to the other sciences, and math isn’t even science to many since it is based on such hard never bending facts. 2 + 2 = 4 kind of stuff, but even 2 + 2 = 4 is not always correct. To say it is takes a bit of faith that the math is at or above base 5. Without more data it takes a leap of faith to make that statement (2 + 2 = 4).

2 + 2 = 11, you know. Trust me. I have faith…but I can also prove it.

Now, to go a little further into faith. let’s say the Bible says 2 + 2 = 4. We accept that as inerrant fact. That is absolutely fine by me. We can prove it if we need to. We don’t need to because the Bible say it is fact so it is. What we do need is a way figure out the stuff NOT said in the Bible.

Since 2 + 2 = 4 (fact by faith) does that mean 2 + 3 = 5? Maybe, Maybe not. It could mean 2 + 3 = 10. That would be base 5. We had to interpret the Bible to get that far. We could be wrong if we made the wrong base interpretation. The Bible still isn’t wrong.

So all around us was created in 7 days. I’ll agree with that - the Bible said it and I believe in the inerrantcy of the Bible. I also think we assume to much - use too much faith as it were - say that science gets it wrong when it says it took billions of years to evolve to where it is today. No where in the Bible is the period of time we base what we think of as time as being attributed to these seven days - that is mans assumption. It’s science’s job to make sense of what it observes and to extrapolate the data into what we can classify as seven days. If scientific observations tend to show that those 7 days are spread over 14 billion years of our present day meaning of time then so be it. That doesn’t mean science got it wrong. One possibility is that man’s assumption about what something not in the Bible is wrong.

This is just an example. Anyway, the original text of the creation story doesn’t use “days” as in “7 days”. The original greek (I think it’s greek) uses a word that literally translates into “period of time”. Yes, the original text says God created all this in 7 periods of time, and that’s that.

We even use “day” to mean “period of time” in general conversation now. Think of the old grandfather telling stories about he youth. “In my day we used to walk seven miles to school each day to get to school.” What’s the meaning of that first “day” in that sentence? It sure doesn’t mean the same as the second “day”.

not to nitpick, hpoo.

But my Bible (King James Version) says 6 days.

And on the Seventh Day He rested.

Time doesn’t really exist. It’s just something we like to use to measure the rate of decay that this planet is undergoing!

:p
We need time, it allows us to classify and define events.
A being like God who is the begining and the end is not privy
to such restraints.

But yeah, going back to the Greek/ Hebrew text is a good way to decern where thr translations have gone astray.

take care,

jerm :cool:

Unnitpikpart2 – The day of rest is a day in the creation story, and a necessary day for creation to be complete…and it was good. :)

I really wish my Southern Baptist family members would see it that way, jerm. Unfortunately, they see it as 24 hours per day as we perceive time. Anyone that doesn’t agree is wrong, and that means the science is not credible. They of course extend the lack of credibility to anything that doesn’t fit their political view, such as global warming, and the original reason for this thread - evolution. One said that there is no evidence that evolution exists at all in any way shape or form ans that earth was only 10000 yeas old - that the dinosaur bones were all younger than that and existed while man was on the earth, and that the old fossils that appear to be early forms of man are all fake. He’s a contented happy person - I say ignorance is bliss.

Quote (Guest @ Nov. 24 2005,08:15)
Time doesn’t really exist. It’s just something we like to use to measure the rate of decay that this planet is undergoing!

Um, kinda, but not really. Time is a dimension my man (spacetime really)… go home and read your Einstein. Sorry, but super literal translations of the Bible don’t match all that well with reality in many cases. At the very least if you are going to go super litertal you have to say God made things to at least look old.

And if you are sick… I sure hope you do more than pray. Leperacy is nasty stuff… Might wanna see a doctor.

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not to nitpick, hpoo.

But my Bible (King James Version) says 6 days.

And on the Seventh Day He rested.


Jeremy, if you are going to rely on that particular text, you really ought to at least use a good translation. Try the New Revised Standard Version at least. Oxford’s edition has usable footnotes. Or, better, get an interlinear translation. You’d be surprised at the number of mistranslations in the KJV.

Also, whatever you do, don’t run to be on your local school board, 'kay?
:)