Well, the Irish results are coming in now, and itās looking bad.
The polarisation between left-wing and right-wing is significant in Ireland, as it is everywhere, but itās far less significant than the other polarisation.
The Republican/Catholics on one hand, and the Unionist/Protestants on the other.
And sadly, itās the extremist, terrorist backed parties on both sides who are winning.
The two moderate parties on each side of the divide who advocate discussion instead of bombs are being ignored by the voters.
'Tis sad.
Ali
Sad indeed. Reminds me of one of my favorite sayings; āHuman beings are not half badā¦ but people suck!ā 
TG ā Yes unfortunately, a āpeopleā tooā¦
Well, Iām not the only one despairing at the fact that the two extremist parties are taking control of Northern Ireland.
Hereās a couple of quotes copied from the BBC Web site:
I know itās a clichĆ©, but will the last person to leave NI please turn the lights out? I am very depressed that a supposedly civilised people can vote these Neanderthal parties into power. I think we have forgotten what the troubles were like, and therefore the true value of the current āpeaceā however fragile, seems less. Never mind, when the irresistible force of Sinn Fein bangs off the immovable object of the DUP for a while, weāll go back to the gun and the bullet; thatās what you all want, it seems.
David, Newry, Co Down
What a sad day for peace, what a sad day for the agreement. I am a nationalist voter, heart-broken about the departure of David Trimble and the UUP, you fought the good fight David. I despair for the future of the North with SF and the DUP - God be with us.
Mike, Omagh, Co. Tyrone
Ever seen a country so ripe for civil war? One can almost see where the battle-lines will be drawn.
Dark Green: Sinn Fein. A republican/Catholic party who are controlled and sponsored by the IRA. Their aim is separation from the UK; and to achieve that the IRA have been running a campaign of bombings and murder for 40 years.They want re-unification with Southern Ireland,(and why not?), but Southern Ireland has made it quite clear they donāt want the IRA. (Most of the IRA finance comes from the USA incidentally).
Pale Green: SDLP. A left of centre moderate party. Theyād like to see re-unification with Southern Ireland if thatās what the people want, but only if Southern Ireland severs its ties to the Vatican. They believe that a solution can be found by political and democratic means. (Poor fools).
Red: DUP. A right-wing Unionist/protestant party who are sponsored and controlled by the protestant terror groups. Their aim is to remain part of the UK, (see the above note re 40 years of murder, etc.). Their stated reason for this is that Southern Ireland is a Catholic country, and they donāt want to be ruled by the pope. The DUP are sort of the Irish equivalent of the KKK, except, they donāt care about the colour of your skin, but if youāre a catholic, you will be burned alive.
Orange: UUP. The original Unionist party. Right-wing and protestant, but they decided to sit down and talk to the IRA instead of trying to kill them. The DUP broke away from them and formed a new party, and you can see the result.
White: Thatās not a Party for Peace sadly. In fact, itās not even Ireland, or people. Northern Ireland has a hole in it (strangely enough), and thatās the hole. (Sort of like a doughnut, but with less sugar, and even less cops).
Anyway, thatās the declared battle-map the people have voted for, so, sit down comfortably and watch the bloodbath commence, (once again).
Tis a sad day truely. Not proud of Irish roots at the moment.
Thanks for explaining the politics of NI Ali, I had next to no idea what was involved over there as far as the politics went. I knew about the IRA and Sinn Fein, but not much more than their names really.
What do you think the chances are of the US taking their war on terror to NI are rollseyes ?
Willy, I really donāt know.
American involvement in Ireland has been twofold so far: Their financing of the IRA via Noraid, and some American diplomat (canāt recall his name), who got the two sides together in the 70ās smiling as they shook hands for the press.
Anyway, that respite only gave them time to import more weaponry and to polish up their bayonets.
But I donāt have much confidence re American overseas policy Iām afraid, they donāt really understand the people nor cultures theyāre dealing with.
Anyway, the history of Ireland and the ātroublesā goes back a thousand years, and lots of info is available on the Internet, but if anyone wants a brief but cynical outlook on it, Iād be happy to oblige.
See, the trouble is, both sides have very valid arguments.
The republican argument:
We are physically and culturally part of Ireland. Weāre all Gaelic people, not Anglo-Saxons like the English. Weāve only been politically separated for 80 years, and thatās an artificial separation, so we should once again be part of Ireland.
The Catholic people of the north have been repressed. They live in squalid housing, they have the poorest jobs, and for a long time, they couldnāt even vote.
Killing and terror gained independence for Southern Ireland, so why canāt it do the same for the North?
The Unionist argument:
We are a democracy, and the majority of people in Northern Ireland have voted, and still vote, for continued union with the UK.
Our ancestors fought and died for the right to be independent of the pope and his priests. Why should we surrender our freedom to a country that, for example, when the pope declared contraception to be a sin, made contraception illegal?
Anyway, as you can see, both sides have valid points.
Of course the āwill of the majorityā is also subject to debate. The IRA say that the North is part of Ireland, and the majority of Ireland as a whole wants the North to join again with the South.
Whereas the Unionists say that not only does the majority of the North want to stay part of the UK, but as the North is part of the UK, then the majority of the UK is what counts. (If they only knew!)
The trouble is, when the recent ātroublesā started in the mid-sixties, it began as a very justified civil rights movement.
The Catholics did have the poorest standard of living. They were excluded from many jobs and places of work. And not being land-owners, they did not have the vote. Not only that, but the police force were a purely Protestant organization, and their main job was to suppress the working class Catholic āserfsā.
Those issues are no longer an issue. The wrongs have been mainly fixed and redressed. But, a lot of people have died since then. Thereās probably very few Northern Irish who donāt have a father or son or husband or friend, who havenāt been murdered by sectarian violence. So, thereās a lot of hate and revenge left in many peopleās hearts.
And the English donāt understand this. They never have done. The UK consists of 3 Celtic peoples; the Welsh, the Scots, and the Irish, plus the Anglo-Saxon English. And the English have never understood the Celtic attitude of; "Die? Yeah, no problem. As long as I can take some of you bastards to #### with me."
Weāre a stubborn bunch of people, and logic will never take the place of emotion. We can be trying to slaughter our enemy one minute, and share a drink and swear external brotherhood with him the next.
In WWII, Southern Ireland declared neutrality, and refused British ships the right to shelter in Irish ports. They did however, grant shelter to German Ships and U-boats; such was the hatred of the Irish for the British.
But at the same time, hundreds of thousands of Irish crossed the sea to Britain to join the British army, and to fight and die for Britain.
So, donāt expect logic from the Irish.
So, can Americaās War on Terror solve the troubles in NI? I doubt it. The US understands the Irish even less than the English do.
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| So, can Americaās War on Terror solve the troubles in NI? I doubt it. The US understands the Irish even less than the English do. |
I was actually being fairly sarcastic in regard to the US policy on terror. But anyway. Made myself look foolish.
Thanks for the brief, really appriecate it, keep it coming.
I know you were being sarcastic Willy. 
But I was the one who made myself look foolish by giving a serious answer to a non-serious question.
But, I do feel serious about the whole situation. Iāve heard the bombs go off in London myself. A very close friendās brother was killed in NI by sectarian assassination.
And the worst thing about it, is itās all so fucking pointless.
Ali
Hi Ali_T:
Iāve been following your postsā¦ I presume, your comments are onā¦ how the Irish people, are voting and voted, in the electionsā¦
Is every Irish citizen on the Voterās List? Did all of the UK get to vote? ā¦ Englandā¦ Scotlandā¦ Walesā¦ Ireland?? NI? SI? Our News brodcasts over here, reported that the Labour Party is going to make up the governmentā¦ but with a smaller majorityā¦ But, if there were more detail, I just donāt understand the system, of governmentā¦ or how it works for the UKā¦
I read between the lines, hereā¦ But I sense that you are not a believer of the the Labour Party and itās way of Governingā¦ Thatās O.K. and To-Each-His-Ownā¦ However, the outcome of this election is gonna affect how the rest of the world sees the people of the British Islesā¦ for the next term of Governmentā¦
A report from you and others, how Great Briton and The British Isles is politically served, might help everyone, including me, understand how it works, or supposed to work would help us, on this side of the Pond, see how the democratic system works or doesnāt workā¦
That would be a great ideaā¦ Ali_Tā¦
Billā¦
Well Bill, Iāve tried not to state my own political POV in this thread, but as it happens, I am a fully paid-up member of the Labour Party, and almost invariably vote that way. Although on occasion, I have voted Liberal.
Anyway, a simple description of UK politics.
Four nations, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland (Ulster) make up the UK.
Southern Ireland (Eire) is a completely separate nation which gained Independence from the UK back in 1921.
So no, citizens of Eire have not been involved in the UK general election. (My mistake for using the word āIrishā when I should have said āUlstermanā Iām afraid.)
So each country has its own government, sort of like each American state has its own government, but the main UK government (like your federal government) is in Westminster, and itās that UK government weāve been voting for.
Our voting system is much simpler than yours, all we do is vote for 1 person who will become the Member of Parliament (MP) for our constituency, and the one with the most votes wins.
A constituency averages between 20,000 - 40,000 voting adults, (age 18 and over), so you have a chance to get to know your MP. I know ours and have worked with him several times.
Now, that MP may or may not belong to one of the major political parties. (And he/she usually does.)
So, the leader of the party which has the greatest number of MPs is invited by the Queen to form a government, and he/she then becomes Prime Minister (PM).
If the party has a clear majority, (over 50% of the seats) then thereās no problem, they just go ahead and govern. If not, wheeling and dealing is carried out until a coalition is formed.
Note, the leader of the party is not directly chosen by the people. Each political party has its own method of choosing its leader. And, that leader can be deselected by his party at any time, even if he/she is PM at the time.
It happened to Margret Thatcher back 15 years ago, the people controlling the Tory party (the ones with big bucks) decided they didnāt want her as PM any more, so when she was at an EU headās of government meeting in Europe, she received a telegram telling her she was fired.
Britain has 3 main parties:
Conservative (AKA Tory): Right-wing, big business, landed aristocracy and very āestablishmentā. Very strong in the south east of England. Virtually ignored in Scotland and Wales.
Labour: Used to be a very left-wing socialist party, but has now moved more into the central area. Strong in Scotland, Wales, northern England, and inner cities.
Liberal: The party which the Labour Party broke away from in the early 20th century. What they stand for, no bugger knows! They more or less stand in the middle, but they really are a wide and diverse group. They often support the Tories, but a wee while back they had legalisation of Marijuana as part of their manifesto, (which is one of times I voted for them 
). Anyway, they tend to attract the votes of dissatisfied supporters of the other two main groups usually, but are fairly strong in Scotland and south-west England.
Scotland has those 3, plus the SNP, whoās main objective is Independence from the UK.
Wales has the Welsh Independence party who fill the same role in Wales.
Iāve already discussed the parties in Ulster where the big 3 of Britain donāt really play a part. But the SDLP are loosely affiliated to the Labour Party, and the two Unionist parties are strongly affiliated to the Tory Party.
Plus those main ones, thereās a whole bunch of minor parties and independents all over the place, who generally take a handful of seats.
Anyway, all those members of Parliament, about 650 of them, make up the House of Commons.
Which is the supreme governing body, and I mean supreme.
No court, no police, not anything, has any authority over the House of Commons. An MP in the House could commit murder, and the police and courts have no jurisdiction over the event.
The Commons can change the constitution and there is no body higher than them to nay say that.
Something that is fairly common, is that an MP uses the House to vilify someone, knowing that he is safe from any charges of slander.
But the House has its own rules, presided over by the Speaker of the House.
Thereās also a second house, the House of Lords. That was originally hereditary peers, but most of those hereditary peers have been removed by Tony Blair and the Labour Party these last 8 years.
Theyāve been replaced by appointed peers. Theoretically āpeople of wisdomā; retired PMās, people significant in the British society, etc. But the future of the House of Lords is still unclear, and subject to much debate.
But its role is clear; to act as a moderating influence on the House of Commons, and itās always been pretty good at that,
Any Bill passed by the Commons must be approved by the Lords before it can become Law.
But ultimately, if the Lords prove to much of an obstacle for the Commons, the Commons could theoretically dissolve the House of Lords.
And thereās the Queen, who is Head of State of the UK.
She has no political power, and she canāt vote or belong to any political party.
But powerless she aināt.
The armed forces of the UK all swear allegiance to her, not to parliament. So, she speaks softly, but carries a big stick. 
Mind you, no monarch since Charles I has gone against the will of Parliament, and that resulted in the Civil War and the subsequent beheading of Charles I.
But, there again, in the 1970ās she fired the Australian PM and his government, so, you never know.
Anyway, the big change that this last election has wrought is the reduction in Tony Blairās majority. (He is leader of the Labour Party and PM).
His majority is still large enough that he can ignore the opposition parties, but he can no longer ignore his own party.
Most MPs are yes-men, who will vote the way they are told to vote by the party whip, but thereās always a large amount of rebels, especially in the Labour party whoās membership ranges from radical Trotskyite Communist, through soggy socialist to social democrat. (I personally, am a sort of soggy Trotskyite with delusions of grandeur, a fascist streak, and as often as not, a terrible hangover. )
Many Labour MPs rebelled over the Iraq war, but Tony Blairās majority was so large that he could ignore them. But that is no longer true, so watch out for a change in British policy re Iraq.
And along the same lines, the Labour party has always been very suspicious of the American Republican Party. (for āsuspiciousā read āhostileā), and have always had more in common with the Democrats.
It was only Tony Blairās strong personal support for President Bush that kept Britain as a US ally, (Tony Blair is often referred to as āBushās Bitchā in the UK), so if Tony Blair resigns as PM (which is quite probable), then the new Labour PM is very unlikely to support a Republican led USA.
Anyway Bill, thatās a brief description of some aspects of British politics. If youāve any questions, just ask, I can bore for hours on the subject! 
Ali
Hi Ali_T:
What a great Reportā¦and Insight, into the British Isles, Politicsā¦ I can see how FootBall, got itās nameā¦ Wellā¦
For a land area, the size of Great Breton, thereās a lot of people living thereā¦ The more people are jammed together, the more the people look for a space to call their ownā¦
We, North Americans, are very influenced by what goes on in Politics in your parts, weather we know it or notā¦
I describe myself as somewhat of a political Passevist. Until the decissions of our elected governments begins to hurt me, by their not so down to earth minds, start Screwing me aroundā¦ By then itās way too late to try to do anything about their policies they makeā¦ 99.9% of the time, their decissions are not for the good of the peopleā¦ Corruption, seperates from their Good Intentions, very quicklyā¦ Wellā¦ Elected people, forget, all-to-soon, who and how they got thereā¦ and so do the voteing publicā¦ 
Anyway, Iāll stop there before I shoot myself in the footā¦
I think I missed, this timeā¦ I think it was close, thoughā¦
At times, we think the Grass is Greener, on the other side of the fenceā¦
Billā¦
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| In WWII, Southern Ireland declared neutrality, and refused British ships the right to shelter in Irish ports. They did however, grant shelter to German Ships and U-boats; such was the hatred of the Irish for the British. But at the same time, hundreds of thousands of Irish crossed the sea to Britain to join the British army, and to fight and die for Britain. |
Well, they say all humor is based on some sort of fact, so I guess I can see where all the Irish inventions came from (helicopter with ejection seats, submarine with flywire doors)ā¦
Willy, the jokes about āthick Irishmenā are totally untrue.
Youāll meet more philosophers, and more thought-provoking philosophy, in an Irish pub than you will in any university.
But, the Irish thinking process is based upon poetry, not logic.
Mind you, theyāre a people who have a lot of fun, so who can argue with that!
Ali
But, if you do want some āIrishā jokesā¦
āSeamus, datās a terrible black eye youāve got there anā allā.
āAye it is Pat, but that bastard Murphy hit me with a half a brickā.
āJeez Seamus, why didnāt you hit him with something else first?ā
āWell Pat, the only thing I had in my hand at the time was Mrs Murphyās right tit, and a fine and wonderful thing it is too, but bloody useless in a fightā.
ROFL
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| And the worst thing about it, is itās all so fucking pointless |
Thatās a fact.
No winners in a war/battle.
The guy who calls himself that is just the one who didnāt lose as much as the other sideā¦
Ali,thanks for the informative posts.
It really is nice of you to take the effort to post about it.
I have a soft spot for the turmoil thatās in Ireland, and it is good to get some more info about it from someone closer to it.
Thank you !
Wihan
Btw - i just HAVE to chime in with one Irish joke ā¦ sorry
āNew Irish navy has glass bottom boats so that they can see the old Irish navyāā¦
| Quote (Ali_T @ May 07 2005,18:35) |
| The armed forces of the UK all swear allegiance to her, not to parliament. So, she speaks softly, but carries a big stick.
|
Nicely explained Ali!
A couple of additional points Iād like to mention. Every elected member of UK parliament must also swear allegiance to the Queen before they can take their seat in Parliament.
This causes a small problem, since the Sinn Fein MPs refuse to swear allegiance to the Queen - For obvious reasons. In fact, Gerry Adams calls her āMrs Windsorā.
This means that any republican Northern Ireland MPs, although they are elected to Parliament, never actually show their faces in the house in Westminster.
On the point of the voting system. One only has to look at the way the Northern Ireland constituency lines have been drawn up to tell thereās something not quite rightā¦
In the Republic of Ireland we use a system of voting called proportional representation, which is more complex than āfirst past the postā, but it means that all parties have a fairer chance. However, this system was not adopted in the North, so they use first past the post. (They actually use proportional representation for their local government electionsā¦ how confusing is that!)
Now, the more Iām typing, the more complicated Iām making it sound. Perhaps tomorrow weāll get started on devolution. lol!
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| Nicely explained Ali! A couple of additional points Iād like to mention. Every elected member of UK parliament must also swear allegiance to the Queen before they can take their seat in Parliament. |
Thank you John, although, I do apologise for trying, as a non-Irishman, to explain the Irish situation, (especially as I do it in my own very slanted and idiosyncratic way!
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| This causes a small problem, since the Sinn Fein MPs refuse to swear allegiance to the Queen - For obvious reasons. In fact, Gerry Adams calls her āMrs Windsorā. |
Ah now, there Gerry Adams is wrong! Had Liz remained unmarried, she would certainly be Ms Windsor, but as sheās married, thereās a strong argument that sheās now actually Mrs Battenburg-Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-GlĆ¼cksburg-oppolopolis.
(Which if nothing else, would look good over a doner-kebab place!)<!āQuoteBegin>
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| Now, the more Iām typing, the more complicated Iām making it sound. Perhaps tomorrow weāll get started on devolution. lol! |
God! Not devolution!
Iām not sure I want to be a monkey again. There again, lying in a tree playing with your nuts all day does have a certain appeal. Ali