(I use to try to record myself playing solo acoustic guitar.)
But now I have recorded my son playing acoustic guitar and singing.
The guitar was recorded with 2 NT2-As put in a (very) spaced pair.
(Both in fig-8 to reduce song spill. It worked.)
The song was recorded simultanously with a ADK Hamburg.
(There are quite a lot of guitar in the song-track. But that is OK. Just adding a center-image of the guitar. The spaced pair gives no centerimage.)
Now to the questions:
I think I will add some reverb. I have tested Ambience 2 with wet reduced to-9.0 dB on the master track.
But instead I could add reverb on each of the tracks (a stereo guitar track and a mono song track).
And if I add reverb on the mono song track I could choose either to expand this track to stereo or not.
1.) What do You do ?
2.) And what reverb ? Ambience 1, Ambience 2 … or what … ?
/Goran Sweden
First, with the mics you have… I would consider using M/S, but that isn’t your question.
First, put your reverb in an aux channel then send everything to the aux. This saves a lot of head ache of messing with 10 instances of a reverb plugin used as an insert. One thing to also use are groups. For instance, send all of your guitar tracks to one group and then send that group to the aux. It makes management much easier.
As for what type of reverb, I can’t really help as it is a persoanl preference. Try the presets available to you and see what you like best and then make changes accordingly.
I don’t really like ambience that much, FWIW. My mantra has always been SIR - a free impulse reverb, with impulses taken from various lexicon units, e.g.
SIR here:
http://www.knufinke.de/sir/index_en.html
impulses here:
www.noisevault.com
I’ve been playing around with GlaceVerb. Another swell freebie IMO… somebody here reminded me about it so I downloaded it again and have been toying with it. Pretty nice.
D
EDIT** Like Tom, I LOVE SIR Reverb… but dang, what a CPU pig!
thing is, D, I only use one or two instances of it in an aux channel, so it’s really not that big a CPU hog for me. Glaceverb is cool.
I like ambience 2 on an aux as a reasonable “sweetener”. It is a pretty subtle reverb and sounds decent.
It is important to remember that any reverb on an aux channel should have no “dry” signal. It is unnecessay to set the “wet” to anything but 0dB on an aux since the relative wet/dry ratio is determined by the send/return levels in combination with the channel gain. If you have dry signal in that case you will find that your levels interact oddly due to the parallel path to the mix bus. Also, unless you are out for an unusual effect the aux send should be post-fader.
Jim
Echoing the Glaceverb plug, over here. Nice sounding, kind of sheen-ey. Maybe a bit like cool, liquid glass. Yeah… that’s it!
I haven’t tried SIR, but that’ll be the next reverb I try out I guess.
I did some multi-tracked vox on a remix session from my old jam-ensemble’s recordings using n-Track’s reverb, and it can be pretty nice. I dialed in “Cathedral”, then tweaked it into place. A few folks have mentioned that Ambience 2 is nice to use, lightly. You’re gonna have to just sit in front of your ‘dang PC’ (my own favorite term) and work it out though, mang! That’s how I do it. Takes a little time, but getting the thing you dig is great.
I like SIR too, but since I switched to my new DAW, I haven’t been able to do anything useful with it - there is a delay when I place it in an AUX bus (which is my preferred method, much more flecibility with regard to how much reverb each track should have) which I simply cannot get rid of - I have been playing with the settings to no avail, but the delay is still there.
In order to rule out n-Track I tried using SIR in Cubase LE - same delay. This is obviously a hardware issue of some kind…
One workaround I have found is to put SIR on the master channel and carefully mix the dry/wet balance to suit the song - no unexpected delay in this case. This approach is not very flexible for two reasons. Firstly, everything has reverb on - even the bass and other instruments that don’t need it, secondly, any EQ setting made in SIR will affect both the reverb and the dry signal, resulting in poor sound quality.
Alas, for now, SIR is impossible to use for anything but live tracks… 
Luckily, I have Glaceverb, too. Soo smooth… 
regards, Nils
another vote for glaceverb here also
| Quote (Nils K @ April 28 2006,03:41) |
| I have been playing with the settings to no avail, but the delay is still there. In order to rule out n-Track I tried using SIR in Cubase LE - same delay. This is obviously a hardware issue of some kind... Luckily, I have Glaceverb, too. Soo smooth... regards, Nils |
I'm listening in on this one. Myself, I have no idea- but it sounds like Glaceverb is not having this problem? SIR is the only effect doing this when you use Aux channels?
Maybe the folks at SIR could help you- have you sent 'em your new DAW's specs? Maybe you have some component in there that needs new driver help? If you got a new machine, with newer parts, you may be on the leading edge of a new issue for them.
But as I say, I have no idea. Hope I'm not wasting your time here.
Hei Nils,
It occurred to me that if you would:
- send all tracks to a group in stead of to master
- send the group -pre fader- to a second aux channel @0dB
- set the group fader to -inf
- put another SIR in the second aux
- set this SIR to dry-only
you would probably have the right latency compensation after all.
I haven’t tried it though…
| Quote (Sloom @ April 28 2006,07:30) | ||
I'm listening in on this one. Myself, I have no idea- but it sounds like Glaceverb is not having this problem? SIR is the only effect doing this when you use Aux channels? Maybe the folks at SIR could help you- have you sent 'em your new DAW's specs? Maybe you have some component in there that needs new driver help? If you got a new machine, with newer parts, you may be on the leading edge of a new issue for them. But as I say, I have no idea. Hope I'm not wasting your time here. |
Sloom, SIR has a built-in delay due to the way its algorithm works. This is adequately explained (at least to the point where I am able to grasp it) on the SIR website. The delay is by design. The funny/strange thing is that n-Track should be capable of compensating out this delay. As stated earlier there is a delay when using the aux channel, but not when going direct, no matter if a compensation figure is input to n-Track.
Glaceverb works in a different way altogether, and has no delay. I know that latency-free (or, at least, so claimed) impulse reverb VST plugins exist, but they involve paying money I am not willing to spend at the moment.
hansje, This sounds like one to try out in practice... - I wonder if that wouldn't
double the delay, though... - or maybe the delay will stay just the same??
Sloom, I have the newest drivers etc. for all components of my DAW - actually pretty standard stuff really(albeit top-grade in comparison to what I have been using) - ASUS uATX mainboard with 945 chipset, socket 775 3GHz P-IV (model 630), 2 Gig RAM, SATA hard disk, EMU 1820 24 bit soundcard, everything running stable as a rock in all respects (I seem to have been using as much time for tuning up the system as I usually spend making music).
The initial specs were actually sort of 'lifted' and upgraded a bit from an out-of-the-box my local instrument dealer has on offer, at a different price (about one grand plus - not including a soundcard!) - all the way down to the ANTEC Aria cabinet.
*setting up for a hands-on test*
Will duly report my findings back to the board...
For now, thanks for your good, creative and inspiring advice, both of you...
regards, Nils
Nils, do you have the latest/greatest version of N? I remember this was a bug that was fixed a while ago…
Build 1756 - Friday, Frebruary 4, 2005
Fixed problem with plug-in latency compensation and ‘ghost’ signal appearing on aux channel
Bubba, I am running the latest non-beta version of n-Track… - i.e. 4.2.0 build 2090 I know about that bug, but that was a loong time ago - I switched to version 4.0 around build 1995 or so…
regards, Nils
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| I wonder if that wouldn’t double the delay, though… - or maybe the delay will stay just the same?? |
My guess is that the delay stays the same, but whatever it does, you wouldn’t notice it anymore, because it should be the same for both aux channels now (there is no direct signal to master anymore).
First report on the ‘avoid-the-dreaded-SIR-latency’ experiment follows
hansje, this works, but only so-so… I have a bit more of experimenting to do. If I keep the group fader at -Inf, only the reverb sound is heard, i.e. no direct sound. If I bring up the group fader, the direct sound is heard, too, but somehow, the gain structure is compromised - I cannot get a proper balance between reverb and direct sound without overloading the master channel. More on that later on in the post…
I followed your instructions carefully - I always wondered what the group channels were there for, now I sort of know…
- send all tracks to a group instead of to master (happily I have only got nine of them in the song…)
- send the group -pre fader- to a second aux channel @0dB (check - the pre trick had me baffled before, but not this time)
- set the group fader to -inf (check, but see above remark)
- put another SIR in the second aux (check)
- set this SIR to dry-only (check, set wet to -inf, dry to 0 dB in order to keep gain structure)
Maybe I just have to experiment a bit with the Aux 1 send levels on the individual tracks to get this right. Anyway, the delay is gone now. Thanks for your advice! I knew there was a way…
BTW, 2xSIR puts a tremendous strain on my (fairly powerful) DAW system. Some tearing is heard in the output sound, so maybe I have to raise the ASIO latency a bit when performing this trick…
regards, Nils
EDIT
After a bit more experimenting I have to conclude that a delay is still there… - but now it is half the delay time?!??! 
SIR is still unuseable - sorry…
I have that problem with SIR when it’s in an AUX also. That make it useless as a “return” effect. This would be caused by a bug in the AUX returns where plug-in latency caused by SIR isn’t compensated for as it is when SIR is used elsewhere. It does fine in channel inserts. I haven’t checked to see if this is fixed in later builds.
Guys, there’s a plugin made to do the delay compensation for SIR – does nothing but that exact delay. I think it’s posted on the SIR site, but you might have to google “SIR compensation plugin” or something like that. Also, keep in mind the difference between pre-fader and post-fader sends (the track/group fader won’t affect what gets sent to the aux). Anyway, all this should be on a different thread.
Goran, all the options you’ve mentioned are reasonable. Here’s the difference.
If you put the reverb on an aux bus, you can feed different amounts from the two tracks (guitar and backtrack). This gives you more control than on the master channel. (As noted above, when using an FX on an aux channel, kill the dry signal.)
If you put the plugin on each track (as a track plugin), then you have even more control: you can adjust the reverb parameters separately for the two tracks. However, when a reverb is used to provide ambience (a “room”) for multiple tracks, usually you want the same parameters. So, you get what you want: more consistency (aux) or more flexibility (track inserts).
Finally, the “expand” box. On a mono track you click this so that any track plugins that can do stereo WILL work in stereo. Try it, with the guitar track muted. Plug in Ambience II (which is a stereo setting). First, listen to it without the “expand” box checked, and crank up the reverb. Now check the box and hear the difference: it’s quite significant. You’ll find you want that box checked.
In general, if I’m using a reverb to get a “vintage reverby” sound, I’ll use it in mono mode (not checking the “expand” box). Far, far more often, I’m using it to get some natural sounding stereo image, so I check the “expand” box. Furthermore, since the stereo image comes from the early reflections more than reverb tails, I usually crank up the damping factor significantly. So, you get more “image” and less “reverb sound”.
Be careful, however, reverb can build up to serious mud. A good rule of thumb is to dial it up to where you can hear the effect, and then back off by 3 to 6 dB. It’s supposed to be subtle.
There are exceptions. In the case of classical guitar, for example, they usually want lots of reverb sound, like it’s a beautiful sounding auditoreum with lots of wood, or something like that. Then you might not back off so much. And SIR is definitely the reverb for that purpose.
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| I haven’t tried SIR, but that’ll be the next reverb I try out I guess. |
Well, then SIR will be the next 50 or so reverbs you try, because by itself it has no sound at all. The sound from SIR depends on the “impulse file” you feed it. The impulse file was generated by recording a starter pistol (or other sharp sound) in a real place and building a convolution kernel from it, so that anything you play though SIR with that impulse file will sound as though it was played where the pistol was and miked where the mike was.
So, investigating SIR becomes a great impulse file hunt. It’s a great thing to do between projects, when you’re not feeling inspired and might enjoy doing some twiddling instead.
My compensation problem with SIR in an AUX return was that the effect (what SIR added) was not compensated, but the dry signal was. That would cause the reverb to “sound” before the dry signal. This happened whether pre or post. The workaround was to put a delay of 8000 samples (I think) before SIR in the AUX return. I could do that easily with AnalogX SampleSlide. Essentially, what this shows is that eveything got compensated everywhere except SIR when it’s in the AUX return. When used anywhere else it was compensated just like it should be.
Jeff, is that what you were saying the the SIR Compensation plug-in fixed?